Rocna anchor from Latvia

[Ameliarose]

Anyone know if the Rocna Anchors advertised on ebay are genuine? They seem quite a bit cheaper than anywhere else even allowing for postage.

 

[DownWest]

Anyone know if the Rocna Anchors advertised on ebay are genuine? They seem quite a bit cheaper than anywhere else even allowing for postage.

Good Luck with that... Bit of research might help, lot out there.

 

[pvb]

Anyone know if the Rocna Anchors advertised on ebay are genuine? They seem quite a bit cheaper than anywhere else even allowing for postage.

Isn't this a case of "if it looks too good to be true......"?

 

[lpdsn]

I suspect the price of anchors doesn't always reflect the cost of manufacture, so in theory there's scope for getting them cheaper, but the Rocna anchor is very dependent upon the grade of steel being correct. There were a few shenanigans over this a few years back and mega-threads on YBW. Subsequently, there was a change of manufacturer to the one that I believe still manufactures the genuine Rocna anchor today.

Here's the original designers take on it.

http://www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-anchors/2011-oct-01-rocna-issues.php

The question you have to ask is where the cheap ones were made and what quality is the steel?

 

[Neeves]

There are a lot of Rocna clones available very cheaply from China. The purveyors call them Rocna, they look, in the images, like a Rocna - but there are subtle differences. The ones I see on Chinese sites make no suggestion they are originals.

Most reputable anchors today have their shanks made from a steel of a much higher strength than more common mild steel but of a copy - you will not know until the shank bends. You will also be unaware of the quality of the welds and weld failures do occur, through poor design or minimal quality control, for cheap and nasty products.

Given the cost of an anchor and the fact you and your crew rely on it for a decent night's sleep and you rely on it to keep your yacht safe - I'd say it false economy to try to save a few pence per night and risk buying a copy anchor and I would suggest you do not consider it - unless you are satisfied it is an original.

There is also the issue of providing a return to the designer of the product - if you want better anchors in the future you need to support the people who develop anchors and not buy cheap copies.

If you need a new anchor I could suggest you look closer to home and consider a Knox anchor (made in Scotland), the aforementioned original Rocna, a Manson Supreme, an Anchor Right Excel, Fortress or Spade. All are highly reputable, all are well endorsed. They are all, or have been, approved by Classification Societies, except Knox. You do not need to support some rip off merchant.

There is a design there, in the foregoing list, to suit whichever fits your bow roller and suits what you consider the 'right' shape. Some of these anchors can be supplied as galvanised steel, alloy or stainless - something for every taste. There are other newer designs but they are less proven, do not necessarily offer any advantage and may have unseen issues - stick to designs that have been around for a good few years. Fortress and Spade have been around for 30 years + or - (and Fortress have not sold 500,000 units and more with a product that does not work!) Rocna, Supreme and Excel for well over 10 years - even the new kid on the block, Knox, has a good few years of sales.

Jonathan

 

[sailaboutvic]

genuine Rocna anchors will have Rocna engraved on the bottom.

 

[sarabande]

SVic - suppose you were a metals engineer wanting to copy an anchor, why would you 'forget' to engrave the maker's name on the bottom ?

 

[sailaboutvic]

SVic - suppose you were a metals engineer wanting to copy an anchor, why would you 'forget' to engrave the maker's name on the bottom ?

Can't answer that, what I can say is I seen two copy and nether had the Rocna boss.

Also I guess making a copy of a Rocna is one thing, engrave Rocna on it is another, leave them open to copy rights.

 

[Neeves]

Before they moved production to China the then Rocna (made in NZ) had no embossing nor engraving of the name in the rear of the heel. The anchor was then folded and welded. With the move to China the fluke was cast and the embossing was no real extra cost. The production was then moved from Shanghai (after the bendy shank fiasco when CMP came to the rescue) to Ningbo, where CMP have their chain factory, and they may have gone back to a fabricated fluke, which they then engraved. I'm not up to speed what the current process is for the fluke - but previous changes made no difference to performance.

Since CMP became involved there have been no reports, or not that I have seen, of anchor bent as a result of poor production, poor QC or inadequate choice of steel.

Why an anchor advertised and marketed under the name 'Rocna' but omits the embossing or engraving of the name on the product makes any difference in terms of copyright or design I cannot understand.

It might not be the compliment one wants - but when someone in China copies your product you are making something of a success, think Go-Pro - as just one example.

Jonathan

 

[sailaboutvic]

Before they moved production to China the then Rocna (made in NZ) had no embossing nor engraving of the name in the rear of the heel. The anchor was then folded and welded. With the move to China the fluke was cast and the embossing was no real extra cost. The production was then moved from Shanghai (after the bendy shank fiasco when CMP came to the rescue) to Ningbo, where CMP have their chain factory, and they may have gone back to a fabricated fluke, which they then engraved. I'm not up to speed what the current process is for the fluke - but previous changes made no difference to performance.

Since CMP became involved there have been no reports, or not that I have seen, of anchor bent as a result of poor production, poor QC or inadequate choice of steel.

Why an anchor advertised and marketed under the name 'Rocna' but omits the embossing or engraving of the name on the product makes any difference in terms of copyright or design I cannot understand.

It might not be the compliment one wants - but when someone in China copies your product you are making something of a success, think Go-Pro - as just one example.

Jonathan

Jonathan , I suppose you keep up with the Rocna saga much more then me, I am more interested how good the anchor is then the company.
Both my Rocna I had the Rocna emboss, so I don't know any different and I am guessing all Rocna made now also do, you may correct me if I am wrong.
The two anchor I mentioned in my posting where copy's, but they looks just like mine.
I know they where copy because I know where they came from and it wasn't China.
Is someone makes a copy of what ever with a slight different, they could argue it's not a copy, on the other hand if you make a copy then put the brand name emboss on it, you just lost the agurement.
Although it seems in this case the advertising suggest it's a Rocna.

 

[Ameliarose]

Jonathan you're assuming that these are copies... It's possible that there is a bonafide sales outlet in Latvia selling genuine Rocna. It looks like the same promotional photo as any of the other UK sellers, has the same logo and looks to me identical. Perhaps you're right and these are cheap rip off copies? Hence my question.

I've done lots of research and gone round in circles with it all. Bickering manufacturers sledging each other and many conflicting tests.
I decided after plenty of head scratching to go with Rocna as they seemed to perform consistantly well.

No posts yet by anyone who has purchased one from ebay (Latvia) so my question answered.
I considered Knox but they are same price bracket as Rocna Manson but still relatively untested. As for the Manson, I didn't fancy the laminated steel idea - seems like a weakness to me. So just looking for the best deal on a Rocna 25kg. Thanks all for your input.

 

[sailaboutvic]

My last Rocna 25kg brought this year was £75 cheaper in Greece then I could had brought in the UK from Jimmy green and then there would had been carriage on top.
although another British chandler just down the road from where I got mine wanted the same price as jimmy green.

I know there lots of expert here on anchors, or so it seems,
I won't declare I never drag with my Rocna, but it's held me in some very big winds and swells and I very happy with it.
That's not to say a Manson or a bugle wouldn't have worked just as well .

 

[Neeves]

I'm sceptical that a dealer in Latvia had negotiated a deal such they can offer genuine Rocna from CMP and undercut anyone else. It is quite possible but looks unlikely. It is always possible they bought a job lot from CMP in China enjoying some local pricing advantage and then shipped themselves - but unlikely.

It is easy to lift an image of a genuine product and post it as you 'own', and sell something similar - but slightly different.

There are no reports of the welded and laminated fluke of a Supreme causing any issues.

I have seen a few images of copy Rocna anchors from different suppliers in China. https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...tml?spm=a2700.7724857.main07.1.109aaec9gdiTze - just google alibaba and Rocna or Made in China and Rocna.

If you look at the one in the link - the weld for the toe is at the front of the weld for the shank/fluke. On a genuine Rocna the weld for the toe is roughly in the middle of the weld for the shank/fluke - so the shank is supporting or strengthening the weld for the toe. Other pictures from the same supplier do not show the toe weld, odd?, and the thickened toe plate on the genuine model does not seem present at all! Other anchors, another brand, built like the one in the link, with no reinforcing for the toe weld, - bent and have been known to crack at the toe. The differences are subtle - but they are important. I have noticed that the copies, like the one in the link, tend to have thinner shanks than the originals.

But - based in Latvia - I'm not sure what CMP can do if they are copies?

As anyone with a good memory will be aware I'm not a fan of Rocna - I will not forgive for the bendy shank fiasco. But CMP have introduced some professionalism and I'll defend the genuine product against a knock off copy any day. There was no excuse for the bendy shanks and I'd steer anyone to another model - there are plenty to choose from - but I do take the moral high ground.

Anchors really do not cost much and will often outlast the yacht.

Jonathan

 

[Loopy]

The issue of counterfeit Chinese products is an enormous problem. Everything from Yeti Coolers to Dooney and Bourke handbags are being copied by Chinese maufacturers who operate largely outside the reach of western copyright laws. in many cases these knock offs are exceptional cosmetically...but in the case of the handbag, nobody will likely know...in the case of the cooler your beer will get warmer faster than it should...in the case of a fake Rockna your five or six figure yacht could be damaged or sunk.

If Rockna has made a flawed business decision to relocate manufacturing to China to increase profit margins without factoring n the inevitable theft of intellectual property and forging that is sure to follow and now the market is flooded with copies the consumer will simply have to choose another brand that made different choices and doesn't suffer from this issue.

 

[Ameliarose]

I agree with most of your points Jonathan, but I was looking for a reason to choose one over the other and this did it for me - http://www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-anchors/manson-supreme-anchor.php

I have flitted back and forth so may still change my mind!

 

[Neeves]

The issue of counterfeit Chinese products is an enormous problem. Everything from Yeti Coolers to Dooney and Bourke handbags are being copied by Chinese maufacturers who operate largely outside the reach of western copyright laws. in many cases these knock offs are exceptional cosmetically...but in the case of the handbag, nobody will likely know...in the case of the cooler your beer will get warmer faster than it should...in the case of a fake Rockna your five or six figure yacht could be damaged or sunk.

If Rockna has made a flawed business decision to relocate manufacturing to China to increase profit margins without factoring n the inevitable theft of intellectual property and forging that is sure to follow and now the market is flooded with copies the consumer will simply have to choose another brand that made different choices and doesn't suffer from this issue.

I keep my ear to the ground on anchors and have contacts in most of the major markets. There are many suppliers in China of fake Rocna (and other anchors). So far I have actually not heard of any being bought by yacht owners. Currently they are accidents waiting to happen. But as Loopy suggests - its simply a matter of time before someone buys a shipment.

Anchor Right here in Australia has this issue now with both their original SARCA and their Ground Anchors. They arrange for a polite letter from their legal team which usually stops the importer - but its easier to both police and enforce as Australia is an island.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

I agree with most of your points Jonathan, but I was looking for a reason to choose one over the other and this did it for me - http://www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-anchors/manson-supreme-anchor.php

I have flitted back and forth so may still change my mind!

The cost of a CMP genuine Rocna at the factory gate is peanuts - for a 25kg model, a few 10s of dollars. There are then shipping, distribution, profit margins and licence fees to add. A genuine Lewmar Delta is a good indication of where prices could be - and Lewmar have shipping, distribution and profit in their chandlers prices. A cheap, genuine, Rocna is very possible but needs a clever importer and special circumstances.

If you buy I will be interested in how satisfied you are. If you feel slightly embarrassed about publicly acknowledging you bought a lemon, drop me a PM. If it works flawlessly then I am sure you will want to advise the assembled audience.

Good luck.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

Ask the Latvian supplier to send you a picture of one of his models in his store, say sitting on a Latvian newspaper.

Jonathan

 

[Laundryman]

Santa just bought me a 25kg Rocna. I too saw the add on eBay and concluded that it just wasn’t worth the risk. My Rocna was purchased through Amazon. I don’t suppose that in itself makes it any less likely to be counterfeit, but rightly or wrongly it gives me peace of mind...... bit like the peace of mind it will give me in use......err, rightly or wrongly!
Merry Christmas. Alan

 

[sailaboutvic]

As anyone with a good memory will be aware I'm not a fan of Rocna - I will not forgive for the bendy shank fiasco. But CMP have introduced some professionalism and I'll defend the genuine product against a knock off copy any day. There was no excuse for the bendy shanks and I'd steer anyone to another model - there are plenty to choose from - but I do take the moral high ground.

Anchors really do not cost much and will often outlast the yacht.

Jonathan

Jonathan , over the years I think I must had read every posting Nolex and you have wrote when it comes to anchors, most of it make interesting reading, I won't say I agree with everything.

Has someone who have anchored for everyday ( give or take a day) for 9 months each year for the last 8 years in what ever the weather has thrown at us, our Rocna have served us well,
I won't say we not had the odd time when we drag, normally there was a reason,
but as a rule once it's in, it stays in.

No disrespect mate, but I can't understand why you want to steer away people from buying a well make anchor that does what it was build to do, because at one time there was a problem with manufacturing, which was not only put right quickly once it came to light , but any anchors made at that time where quickly replaced.
My last Rocna anchor after two year and that's a lot of anchoring time for us, develop a very small rust on its tip, I hold my hand up more likely our fault, we did get it caught on a ship size chain in an harbour and it took some to get it out, as it was much too deep to dive down on,
how after just two emails one to report the rust problem to Rocna and another to send a photo, I was instructed to get in touch with the nears chandler that sells their anchors and it would be replaced.
I don't think an company can be any fairer then that.

My view is there a lot of NG anchors about and most work well in the right conditions as long as the user anchors in the good way, given enough scope and set the anchor.

Any anchor no matter what make, that's not been set or not enough scope is likely to drag.
The really problem a lot of the time isn't the anchor, but the person using it, the amounts of anchoring posting on YBW just proves that.

I would say to the OP if you want a Rocna buy a genuine Rocna and as long as you use it in the right way, you won't be disappointed.

If you have concerns about the seller, you could always email Rocna and as their advice.