RNLI vs Daily Mail

[CLB]

You think that you don't pay for rescues? Where do you think that the £700 odd million came from? The only difference is that you paid in advance whereas in France you pay (only with respect to the boat) when you need to. The rate is strictly at cost as the SNSM is not allowed to make a profit and they even have to take flack from commercial towing concerns who claim that the SNSM undercuts them. Also in France the majority of tows will be covered by insurance. The government I believe has recently increased its contribution from the previous rate of 8% of revenues - NB these are French revenues which are about 1/10th of RNLI revenues which means that the French governmental subsidy would probably be less than 1% of the RNLI's revenues.

Also the French government is required by law to ensure that an adequate life-saving service is in place. This obligation is delegated to the SNSM which is a private charity.

While we are at it I read a report from an SNSM centre referring to the number of unpaid towing invoices they had with British yachtsmen.

As for the payment for rescuing boats I have already dealt with that above. (Post #204)

Post 204 reproduced to save others the hassle of looking for it.

I don't think it does address the point. Choosing to chuck a few quid in the tin every now and then is not the same as being presented with a bill for hundreds or euros after being towed into port.

As for the last point of post 204, I wonder how many French boats have received completely free RNLI assistance?

 

[Sybarite]

I don't think it does address the point. Choosing to chuck a few quid in the tin every now and then is not the same as being presented with a bill for hundreds or euros after being towed into port.

Most French insurance policies would cover such charges. Yours probably don't because of the free RNLI assistance. However I think I would prefer to pay a towing charge rather than lose my boat.

 

[Seajet]

Post 204 reproduced to save others the hassle of looking for it.

I don't think it does address the point. Choosing to chuck a few quid in the tin every now and then is not the same as being presented with a bill for hundreds or euros after being towed into port.

As for the last point of post 204, I wonder how many French boats have received completely free RNLI assistance?

It seems to be a different mindset; when I was helped out with a busted dinghy oarlock in a rising gale I gave each member of the Hayling ILB crew and the station boss a bottle of half decent plonk, that seemed the acceptable going rate at the time. :encouragement:

 

[Sybarite]

It seems to be a different mindset; when I was helped out with a busted dinghy oarlock in a rising gale I gave each member of the Hayling ILB crew and the station boss a bottle of half decent plonk, that seemed the acceptable going rate at the time. :encouragement:

In France they would give decent plonk....

 

[CLB]

Most French insurance policies would cover such charges. Yours probably don't because of the free RNLI assistance. However I think I would prefer to pay a towing charge rather than lose my boat.

I would prefer to not lose my boat and also not worry about a huge bill for being rescued. I wonder how many have lost their boat because they delayed calling for help from the French lifeboats for fear of a large bill, thinking they could sort the problem themselves.

I see you chose to cut off and ignore the last part of my post. You talk about unpaid bills from British boats so the question is relevant. You seem to have all the facts and figures, so I was hoping you could enlighten me.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I would prefer to not lose my boat and also not worry about a huge bill for being rescued. I wonder how many have lost their boat because they delayed calling for help from the French lifeboats for fear of a large bill, thinking they could sort the problem themselves./QUOTE]

I wonder how many people in the UK have lost their boats (and possibly their lives) because the local RNLI boat was 30 miles in the other direction, helping someone who saw them as a free breakdown service.

 

[JumbleDuck]

This is a forum not the supreme court . Personally if one believes that there is a need for moderation I think it is far healthier for the moderators to be identifiable and open participants in discussions, I don't see that them being prevented from doing so would be particularly helpful and certainly not encourage volunteers. I believe that there are other moderators on here who keep the fact that they hold the appointment rather quiet until one upsets them - a far less admirable tactic IMHO.

I have no problem with any of that, but I do think that Moderators should take especial care to avoid the appearance of personal antagonism.

 

[Sybarite]

I would prefer to not lose my boat and also not worry about a huge bill for being rescued. I wonder how many have lost their boat because they delayed calling for help from the French lifeboats for fear of a large bill, thinking they could sort the problem themselves.

I see you chose to cut off and ignore the last part of my post. You talk about unpaid bills from British boats so the question is relevant. You seem to have all the facts and figures, so I was hoping you could enlighten me.

I have no idea how many French boats received free assistance from the RNLI. The situation in France came to light when the previous President suggested that tows should be free in France too. One station replied to the effect that with the unpaid bills from British sailors it might as well be.

 

[jordanbasset]

My understanding is that the SNSM is subsidised by around 35% by tax payers in one form or another
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Société_Nationale_de_Sauvetage_en_Mer
'35% comes from the national government, the regions, the départements and the local communities.'

In addition you have to pay quite a substantial fee if you want your boat rescued.
I have no problem with that, if France wants to do it that way then that is up to them. Personally I do find it strange that the SNSM is apparently super efficient and provides a service at 10% the cost of the RNLI needs such subsidies. I find it hard to believe the French are more miserly when it comes to donating to charity. Perhaps it is the people at the top of the SNSM not up to it, maybe if they paid them a little more they would get better quality managers.fund raisers
Still I don't live in France so not upto me but perhaps they could hire some of the RNLI managers to show them how to do it

 

[lpdsn]

Most French insurance policies would cover such charges. Yours probably don't because of the free RNLI assistance. However I think I would prefer to pay a towing charge rather than lose my boat.

There's a third alternative which is the way the Swedes do it. The rescue service also includes a subscription towing service. OK, in parts of southern England this would mean the RNLI competing with Seastart, but it could work in the rest of the country if the spate of bad publicity hits their legacy income.

 

[Mark-1]

I suppose the big questions is "What would the RNLI do with all that money if they ran like SNSM?".

This. If the RNLI spent as little as the SNSM their Trustees would be in prison! (Seriously, I doubt it would be a criminal offence, but the RNLI is legally a charity and by law it has to spend what it collects. They are forced by law to be very spendy.) Always makes me chuckle when people have money saving ideas for the RNLI, the last thing the RNLI needs is ways to spend less. Personally, I think the RNLI should be given special dispensation by the Charities Commission to hoard money until they have enough to work on an endowment model.

I would prefer to not lose my boat and also not worry about a huge bill for being rescued. I wonder how many have lost their boat because they delayed calling for help from the French lifeboats for fear of a large bill, thinking they could sort the problem themselves.

Point taken, but the RNLI also disincentives calls. They go to the local press after shouts and even send footage to TV shows. A high profile newsreader (who's name escapes me) had a TV crew on the Pontoon before he arrived - he hadn't even asked for a rescue! Reluctance to be rescued by the RNLI and publicised as their next captain calamity is by far the biggest reason I cough up for Sea Start. The independents don't seem to go public and criticise the people they rescue to the same degree. (Maybe that's confirmation bias on my part.)

There's a third alternative which is the way the Swedes do it. The rescue service also includes a subscription towing service.

I like this idea. It also makes me realise that my Sea Start subscription is essentially a significant cash donation to the RNLI/Independents in my area. I won't need to bother them for any of the trivial things that are *likely* to happen, just the massive disasters that are less common. (Although I think if I ever end up in need of even the most trivial assistance I might try Frank Dunster on 16 just to be able to claim to have been rescued by an actual legend before he retires in 2 years time.)

perhaps they could hire some of the RNLI managers to show them how to do it

Pretty much this. I can't be bothered to check what percentage of SNSM are unpaid but it's hard to imagine an unpaid staff member is as committed as paid staff. Working on the boats is part time and good fun so I'm not surprised people will do a good job of that FOC, but middle management and admin? No way. Full time unpaid staff will be doing a half arsed job compared to well paid staff.

 

[Heckler]

I've no problem with community moderators taking part in debate but - as most of them do, most of the time - they should probably avoid getting into personalities. Doesn't look good.

I agree and my view is he stepped over the line.

 

[Sybarite]

Full time unpaid staff will be doing a half arsed job compared to well paid staff.

Is there anything other than pure prejudice to justify this assertion?

My suggestion is that if somebody is motivated enough to volunteer he will be likely to do a better job than the mercenary.

 

[Mark-1]

Is there anything other than pure prejudice to justify this assertion?

My suggestion is that if somebody is motivated enough to volunteer he will be likely to do a better job than the mercenary.

Yup, pure prejudice, I've done no research and have no evidence to back it up. I bet it's true though. I can see why - say - boat part time crew will put 100pc into it, because I would myself but full timers? At appraisal time when someone says "you need to improve this area" how seriously is an unpaid worked gonna take that? What time do unpaid people go home on a Friday?

I do fully accept the point that other things being equal people doing something for the love of it will do a better job, but full timers doing the more tedious jobs in a large organisation? Seems like a fantasy to me. For a start you're reducing your potential employees to people with a private income they can live on.

But now I'm spouting more prejudice.

I must confess I'm somewhat doubtful about the number of unpaid people there are in the SNSM. I can imaging a few non-exec director level people working part time and people doing the more interesting jobs FOC but people with a private income working cleaning the loos and working in the canteen? I'm not so sure.

Again, all guesswork, I haven't goggled.

 

[penberth3]

...Point taken, but the RNLI also disincentives calls. They go to the local press after shouts and even send footage to TV shows. A high profile newsreader (who's name escapes me) had a TV crew on the Pontoon before he arrived - he hadn't even asked for a rescue! Reluctance to be rescued by the RNLI and publicised as their next captain calamity is by far the biggest reason I cough up for Sea Start...

I've seen this a few times, but surely it's very rare, and shouldn't happen at all. Identities should remain confidential and there should be no public criticism.

 

[Mark-1]

I've seen this a few times, but surely it's very rare, and shouldn't happen at all. Identities should remain confidential and there should be no public criticism.

Frankly yes. I suspect it's a bit like when big car producers have a problem with a model - it only effects a tiny percentage of their output but that's a large enough number that everyone seems to know someone who's had the problem.

None the less, the disincentive is there and I can be 100pc sure that if Sea Start tow me off the putty or fix my engine I won't be reading about it in the local paper, and that's well worth £150 a year. If an independent helps me I might end up in the Local paper but it certainly won't be on TV.

 

[Juan Twothree]

I've seen this a few times, but surely it's very rare, and shouldn't happen at all. Identities should remain confidential and there should be no public criticism.

And if it does happen, it is totally against RNLI policy. I've just been looking for the actual wording on the RNLI intranet, but can't find it at the moment.

But the gist of it is that before any still or video images are released, we have to confirm that permission has been obtained from anyone who is identifiable. The policy states that "Ideally this should be in writing", but that's completely impractical in an ILB. So If I'm wearing a helmet camera, I simply video myself asking if they have any objections.

The only time we don't ask is if its obvious from the person's demeanour that the answer will be no, in which case it gets deleted straight away. And if it was obviously inappropriate then we wouldn't be videoing or taking photos in the first place.

Bear in mind that sometimes members of the public will video a rescue. What they do with that footage, and where they share it, is obviously noting to do with the RNLI.

 

[Mark-1]

And if it does happen, it is totally against RNLI policy. I've just been looking for the actual wording on the RNLI intranet, but can't find it at the moment.

But the gist of it is that before any still or video images are released, we have to confirm that permission has been obtained from anyone who is identifiable. The policy states that "Ideally this should be in writing", but that's completely impractical in an ILB. So If I'm wearing a helmet camera, I simply video myself asking if they have any objections. Not sure I really buy the idea that it's non-RNLI people giving images to the press either, most stations seem to have a press officer and the FB footage/images I see seem to typically be from the Lifeboat itself.

The only time we don't ask is if its obvious from the person's demeanour that the answer will be no, in which case it gets deleted straight away. And if it was obviously inappropriate then we wouldn't be videoing or taking photos in the first place.

Bear in mind that sometimes members of the public will video a rescue. What they do with that footage, and where they share it, is obviously noting to do with the RNLI.

The case I found most shocking was the Dingy sailor on TV which was certainly filmed by an RNLI crew and released with the RNLI's permission. They'd been through his bag and used the contents of the bag to further demonstrate what a fool he was. There is no way he agreed to that and if he had I doubt he knew what he'd agreed to - he didn't speak English.

If I need help, almost by definition I'll have done *something* wrong, Sea start won't search my bag or my boat. They turn up, sort you out and go away. That's worth £150 a year. FWIW, I think independents *are* less critical of the people they rescue, but even if they're not, they don't have their own TV show, they probably don't have as many media contacts and they probably have less facebook followers.

 

[Juan Twothree]

The case I found most shocking was the Dingy sailor on TV which was certainly filmed by an RNLI crew and released with the RNLI's permission. They'd been through his bag and used the contents of the bag to further demonstrate what a fool he was. There is no way he agreed to that and if he had I doubt he knew what he'd agreed to - he didn't speak English.

If I need help, almost by definition I'll have done *something* wrong, Sea start won't search my bag or my boat. They turn up, sort you out and go away. That's worth £150 a year. FWIW, I think independents *are* less critical of the people they rescue, but even if they're not, they don't have their own TV show, they probably don't have as many media contacts and they probably have less facebook followers.

That is indeed shocking.

As recent events at Whitby and elsewhere have shown, just because someone is prepared to go to sea to help others, it doesn't make them immune from making spectacular errors of judgement.

Or sometimes just being a total d*ckhead.

 

[penberth3]

And if it does happen, it is totally against RNLI policy. I've just been looking for the actual wording on the RNLI intranet, but can't find it at the moment...

Thanks, I though that would be the case. I think most organisations have a policy that only authorised people can speak to the press, e.g. a PR officer who knows the legalities, and knows how devious the media can be in their search for stories.