RNLI vs Daily Mail

[JumbleDuck]

And just to make it absolutely clear without asking you to read everything I write on the subject, my position is exactly the opposite of fixed ideas. The basis of my argument is that any analysis of the organisation must be set in the context of the organisation in the widest sense, not fitted into a preconceived idea of what it should be and using inappropriate tools.

Which is precisely which "The RNLI is the RNLI and cannot be compared to any other organisation" is such an unsatisfactory response. Those who leap to its defence seem to have a very preconceived idea of what it should be;

Comparisons with other organisations are of limited use, particularly when the overlap in activity is relatively small and more importantly the organisational context is very different.

On the contrary, comparisons with very different organisations which have a huge overlap in activity, are fascinating.

I suggested he carried out a comparison of the UK and French rail systems. They both run trains, but......

But you don't want to compare different organisations and there is no point in comparing identical ones.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Do they? Not so sure. :encouragement:

Govia, which is in so much trouble at the moment, is 35% owned by Keolis which in turn is 70% owned by SNCF.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Just to be clear John, who are you referring to when accusing somebody of suffering from or being afflicted by idee fixe?
Quite a serious accusation on a public forum?

And perhaps not quite the behaviour one would expect from a moderator, who really should try not to allow personal dislike of posters to show.

 

[dom]

And perhaps not quite the behaviour one would expect from a moderator, who really should try not to allow personal dislike of posters to show.

Fair point in a judicial sense, then again John is what appears to be termed a ‘community mod’ who is free to join into debates, but also has the role of ensuring the application of Time Inc’s generally sensible editorial policies.

FWIW I’ve crossed swords with John a few times on the forum and have never received an infraction or whatever they term it. Far better IMHO to deal with a thoughtful fellow sailor than a nameless admin person. No?

 

[Sybarite]

idée fixe

From wiki

John, you said

They are about saving lives and they don't have any choice about having suitably qualified senior management. It's a multi million pound business that can't be managed by volunteers.

Pay peanuts; get monkeys.

The SNSM and the RNLI are in the same ball park with respect to shouts, lives saved, number of stations etc.

The SNSM has 70 employees, the RNLI has over 2000. The difference is that the SNSM is a truly volunteer organization and the list of their directors reads like a Who's Who in France.

The top three persons earn an average of €45k each. So your assertion that a multi million pound organization cannot be run by volunteers is belied by what happens in France.

The net result is that two similar organizations have a ten fold difference in their operating costs.

 

[Sybarite]

As we have seen nothing that anyone posts to counter his position makes any difference, including rejecting or ignoring facts that do not suit his arguments.

State an example please.

 

[Sybarite]

Fair point in a judicial sense, then again John is what appears to be termed a ‘community mod’ who is free to join into debates, but also has the role of ensuring the application of Time Inc’s generally sensible editorial policies.

FWIW I’ve crossed swords with John a few times on the forum and have never received an infraction or whatever they term it. Far better IMHO to deal with a thoughtful fellow sailor than a nameless admin person. No?

I only entered this thread at post #59 when John challenged another poster to justify his criticisms as to RNLI lies.

I provided one example of where the rebuttal given to the Daily Mail criticisms was either incompetent or mendacious. If I were being cynical - impossible I know - I also hinted at a possible motive for massaging the truth. (ie the embarrassment that the 2016 pension adjustment was double the total SNSM operating costs for the year)

 

[Sybarite]

Unfortunately playing the ball when incorrect information is constantly repeated gets rather wearing. If you have the patience to read the long posts from that source you will see that politeness is not rewarded. Anything that does not fit the preconceived ideas is ignored and discarded, not countered.

Can you justify these criticisms with specific examples?

Just to show that you are not prejudiced against me as your criticisms would appear to suggest over the last number of years. And you talk about an "idée fixe"....

 

[Sybarite]

And I guess the collective irritation stems from his endless attempts to distort every RNLI related thread into yet another RNLI/SNSM spat.

Please note I have not posted on this thread

RNLI - commercialisation just around the corner?

Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/forumdisp...nthly-s-Scuttlebutt/page2#cG3UlbCVdSApaarV.99

 

[nortada]

And perhaps not quite the behaviour one would expect from a moderator, who really should try not to allow personal dislike of posters to show.

Fair point in a judicial sense, then again John is what appears to be termed a ‘community mod’ who is free to join into debates, but also has the role of ensuring the application of Time Inc’s generally sensible editorial policies.

FWIW I’ve crossed swords with John a few times on the forum and have never received an infraction or whatever they term it. Far better IMHO to deal with a thoughtful fellow sailor than a nameless admin person. No?

I consider to bring John’s role as a community moderator into the debate is below the belt️

 

[john_morris_uk]

And perhaps not quite the behaviour one would expect from a moderator, who really should try not to allow personal dislike of posters to show.

I have no personal dislike of Sybarite whatsoever. In fact I admire and agree with many of his views. I don't agree with his persistent criticism of the RNLI though and find him fixed and single minded on that subject. Explaining my opinion is not an ad hominem attack IMHO.

 

[Sybarite]

I have no personal dislike of Sybarite whatsoever. In fact I admire and agree with many of his views. I don't agree with his persistent criticism of the RNLI though and find him fixed and single minded on that subject. Explaining my opinion is not an ad hominem attack IMHO.

I have never taken offense at your remarks and I believe you to be fair and balanced. However i suspect that when you write "I don't agree with" what you really are saying is that "I don't want to agree with..."

If you find me to be "fixed and single minded" on the subject of the RNLI I can assure you that if the facts change then so will my opinion. However the criticisms that I have raised over the last few years are just as apt today as they were then. IMHO.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Fair point in a judicial sense, then again John is what appears to be termed a ‘community mod’ who is free to join into debates, but also has the role of ensuring the application of Time Inc’s generally sensible editorial policies.

I've no problem with community moderators taking part in debate but - as most of them do, most of the time - they should probably avoid getting into personalities. Doesn't look good.

 

[JumbleDuck]

The net result is that two similar organizations have a ten fold difference in their operating costs.

I suppose the big questions is "What would the RNLI do with all that money if they ran like SNSM?".

 

[JumbleDuck]

I have no personal dislike of Sybarite whatsoever. In fact I admire and agree with many of his views. I don't agree with his persistent criticism of the RNLI though and find him fixed and single minded on that subject. Explaining my opinion is not an ad hominem attack IMHO.

Thank you. Caesar's wife applies, I think.

 

[Blue Sunray]

Thank you. Caesar's wife applies, I think.

This is a forum not the supreme court . Personally if one believes that there is a need for moderation I think it is far healthier for the moderators to be identifiable and open participants in discussions, I don't see that them being prevented from doing so would be particularly helpful and certainly not encourage volunteers. I believe that there are other moderators on here who keep the fact that they hold the appointment rather quiet until one upsets them - a far less admirable tactic IMHO.

It's notable that one of the others (not you JD) who is getting pompous about this has already been absent from the forum for a time due to his abusive postings and could be perceived as suffering from a severe case of sour grapes.

 

[Sandy]

I suppose the big questions is "What would the RNLI do with all that money if they ran like SNSM?".

We would need to move south into more temperate waters.

While both the UK and France are great seafaring nations the farthest north RNLI station is located at 60 degrees north, while the most northerly SNSM station would be about 51 degrees. We are all aware of the differences in weather and climate between the north of Shetland and the south of Kent.

From what I can see SNSM does little R&D while the RNLI does a significant amount. Perhaps we should stop that and return to rowing boats and cork filled lifejackets?

 

[jordanbasset]

I suppose the big questions is "What would the RNLI do with all that money if they ran like SNSM?".

If it was ran like the SNSM they would have to rely on taxpayers/local authrority subsidy and payments for rescueing boats

 

[Sybarite]

We would need to move south into more temperate waters.

While both the UK and France are great seafaring nations the farthest north RNLI station is located at 60 degrees north, while the most northerly SNSM station would be about 51 degrees. We are all aware of the differences in weather and climate between the north of Shetland and the south of Kent.

Yeah, right...:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZk1IuQHlDY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2LeNBY_5gk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AH02UMFTknI

From what I can see SNSM does little R&D while the RNLI does a significant amount.

And what exactly can you see to justify this observation?

 

[Sybarite]

If it was ran like the SNSM they would have to rely on taxpayers/local authrority subsidy and payments for rescueing boats

State aid for the SNSM was upped from €2.2m to €3.7m in 2017 - or 1.6% of the RNLI's income. As for the payment for rescuing boats I have already dealt with that above. (Post #204)