RNLI vs Daily Mail

[Hydrozoan]

I think it would be better to use a term like 'reneged', to avoid needless offence.
https://english.stackexchange.com/q...as-in-reneging-on-a-bet-derogatory-toward-the

 

[Sybarite]

Don't know how you can "welch" on something that's entirely voluntary, and isn't asked for or expected.

I am talking about tows in France from the SNSM.

 

[penberth3]

I am talking about tows in France from the SNSM.

Fair enough. Everybody else was talking about the RNLI.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Fair enough. Everybody else was talking about the RNLI.

I assumed he meant the SNSM.

 

[robertj]

Somebody had to pay money in in order to build up reserves to the level they are now at. It may not have been you personally but others have paid on your behalf. The RNLI is being generous with donated funds.

Yes I misunderstood you post and took it the tax payer was financing it.

 

[Mark-1]

A couple of new developments.

Firstly, Jersey Lifeboat Association have a boat - a Tyne Class:
https://jerseyeveningpost.com/news/...tone-as-islands-independent-lifeboat-arrives/

Secondly, Joe Winspear, one of the Whitby Crew posted his account on Facebook:

As many of you know I was recently stood down by the RNLI for a breach of the Code of Conduct and finally today I am able to tell you my side of the story as I have been kept quiet by the RNLI until are appeal hearing was completed. Firstly I would like to say a massive thank you to everyone that has contacted us and supported us though this entire nightmare. Sorry I haven’t got back to you all as of yet hopefully I will soon. Today myself and Ben received the decision that will not be reinstated to the Whitby Lifeboat Crew which for us is a heart breaking decision as all we have ever wanted to do was to save lives at sea. The mugs where a light hearted joke between the crew of which no one of the crew was offended. Many of you will know that from time to time we have to see and deal with circumstances that no one should ever have to deal with of which I have received limited if any support from the RNLI after events like that. The mugs were found by an Area Lifesaving Manager and we as a crew were told that if they were taken off the station no further action would be taken. They were taken off station within 48 hours. 2 months later we received emails from the RNLI stating that we were under investigation for a breach of the Code of Conduct and we had to attend a mandatory interview. I was hounded for days to arrange an interview which I did for Thursday 15th March and we were told that we couldn’t have anyone sit in on the interview, which after consulting with my solicitor I should have been able to. After our interviews I was told this would be resolved within the next week. As a crew we were then told it was mandatory to attend a crew meeting on the 19th April for us to be updated on the progress of the investigation and provide the opportunity for feedback. within the meeting we were talked down, laughed at by a highly paid Inclusion & Diversity Manager for the RNLI on points we were trying to raise and in my opinion completely disrespected for the volunteer role we do. On the 24th of April I was then asked to attend a hearing meeting for the 30th of April. I had to take a day off work to attend this meeting. I was accused of being threatening and abusive towards a member of staff at the meeting held on the 19th of April which is completely false and I haven’t received an apology for and my impression was there for me to beg to stay on the crew. The next day I was contacted by the Hearing Manager and was sacked/stood down on the telephone, that conversation lasted less than 60 seconds. Since then we have had a huge media reaction and the RNLI have released several press releases making myself out in a extremely bad light. I feel that the punishment doesn’t reflect the situation - the mug wasn’t intended to be kept on Station. Everyone makes mistakes from time to time but it seems the RNLI don’t give second chances. I have been a dedicated volunteer and feel I have been made an example of. All of this has cost the institution thousand of pounds which is money supposed to be used to save lives at sea. Many of you will have seen in the Daily Mail the recent recruitment advertisement for a Safeguard Officer with a £40,000+ a year salary another just small example of the spending with the RNLI. If you give money to the RNLI and you don’t request it to been reserved for a particular station then it’s placed in the central pot and will be used to to investigate crew members throughout the county just a few being St Helier, Scarborough, Arbroath, Whitby, Bridlington, Filey, Cleethorpes and New Brighton. Designate the funds to your local station. But unfortunately today I received the news on my appeal and that the decision to stand me down has been upheld. Anybody that’s knows me will know that I am Lifeboat through and through and today’s news is devastating. Whitby 21 signing off.

 

[Seajet]

How very sad; when a charity has a highly paid ' inclusion and diversity manager ' my deep instinct is the lunatics have taken over the asylum !

 

[Sticky Fingers]

From the BBC:

Two lifeboat volunteers have been sacked for making "pornographic images" of colleagues, the RNLI has said. It said one Whitby volunteer produced graphic sexual images "which went far beyond banter" of a crew member without their knowledge. "The other produced a hardcore pornographic image of a fellow crew member on a mug," the charity said.

In response, the volunteers said the RNLI had overreacted to what was meant as "a light-hearted joke". The charity said some newspapers depicted mugs that had the head of one of the crew members on the body of a naked woman.

But it said the actual material was "so graphic no newspaper would be able to print it without breaking the law".

My bold. Not seen it myself but no way would I want, or condone material of that nature that in any workplace. So if true, I'm 100% behind the sacking.

 

[JumbleDuck]

How very sad; when a charity has a highly paid ' inclusion and diversity manager ' my deep instinct is the lunatics have taken over the asylum !

Any organisation (not concerned with production of the material in question) whose staff display hardcore pornography in their place of work urgently needs an inclusion and diversity officer. As, of course, does any organisation which wants to attract the best possible staff, regardless of background.

 

[RichardS]

A couple of new developments.

Firstly, Jersey Lifeboat Association have a boat - a Tyne Class:
https://jerseyeveningpost.com/news/...tone-as-islands-independent-lifeboat-arrives/

Secondly, Joe Winspear, one of the Whitby Crew posted his account on Facebook:

As many of you know I was recently stood down by the RNLI for a breach of the Code of Conduct and finally today I am able to tell you my side of the story as I have been kept quiet by the RNLI until are appeal hearing was completed. Firstly I would like to say a massive thank you to everyone that has contacted us and supported us though this entire nightmare. Sorry I haven’t got back to you all as of yet hopefully I will soon. Today myself and Ben received the decision that will not be reinstated to the Whitby Lifeboat Crew which for us is a heart breaking decision as all we have ever wanted to do was to save lives at sea. The mugs where a light hearted joke between the crew of which no one of the crew was offended. Many of you will know that from time to time we have to see and deal with circumstances that no one should ever have to deal with of which I have received limited if any support from the RNLI after events like that. The mugs were found by an Area Lifesaving Manager and we as a crew were told that if they were taken off the station no further action would be taken. They were taken off station within 48 hours. 2 months later we received emails from the RNLI stating that we were under investigation for a breach of the Code of Conduct and we had to attend a mandatory interview. I was hounded for days to arrange an interview which I did for Thursday 15th March and we were told that we couldn’t have anyone sit in on the interview, which after consulting with my solicitor I should have been able to. After our interviews I was told this would be resolved within the next week. As a crew we were then told it was mandatory to attend a crew meeting on the 19th April for us to be updated on the progress of the investigation and provide the opportunity for feedback. within the meeting we were talked down, laughed at by a highly paid Inclusion & Diversity Manager for the RNLI on points we were trying to raise and in my opinion completely disrespected for the volunteer role we do. On the 24th of April I was then asked to attend a hearing meeting for the 30th of April. I had to take a day off work to attend this meeting. I was accused of being threatening and abusive towards a member of staff at the meeting held on the 19th of April which is completely false and I haven’t received an apology for and my impression was there for me to beg to stay on the crew. The next day I was contacted by the Hearing Manager and was sacked/stood down on the telephone, that conversation lasted less than 60 seconds. Since then we have had a huge media reaction and the RNLI have released several press releases making myself out in a extremely bad light. I feel that the punishment doesn’t reflect the situation - the mug wasn’t intended to be kept on Station. Everyone makes mistakes from time to time but it seems the RNLI don’t give second chances. I have been a dedicated volunteer and feel I have been made an example of. All of this has cost the institution thousand of pounds which is money supposed to be used to save lives at sea. Many of you will have seen in the Daily Mail the recent recruitment advertisement for a Safeguard Officer with a £40,000+ a year salary another just small example of the spending with the RNLI. If you give money to the RNLI and you don’t request it to been reserved for a particular station then it’s placed in the central pot and will be used to to investigate crew members throughout the county just a few being St Helier, Scarborough, Arbroath, Whitby, Bridlington, Filey, Cleethorpes and New Brighton. Designate the funds to your local station. But unfortunately today I received the news on my appeal and that the decision to stand me down has been upheld. Anybody that’s knows me will know that I am Lifeboat through and through and today’s news is devastating. Whitby 21 signing off.

OK .... so it's clear that it's yet another total over-reaction by the RNLI, just like every other case appears to have been. A truly shambolic management organisation. :ambivalence:

Richard

 

[Blue Sunray]

Any organisation (not concerned with production of the material in question) whose staff display hardcore pornography in their place of work urgently needs an inclusion and diversity officer. As, of course, does any organisation which wants to attract the best possible staff, regardless of background.

Too right

“One volunteer was stood down for social media activity which targeted a member of RNLI staff without their knowledge and produced graphic sexual images which went far beyond banter.

“The other volunteer produced a hardcore pornographic image of a fellow crew member on a mug.”

Bullying pure and simple. Too many (almost exclusively old and male) people seem to think that 'good lads' having a bit of 'banter' should be immune from normal standards of civilised behaviour and the law. I'd bet their reaction would be a little bit different if it was their daughter or son who was targeted by these bullies.

 

[lpdsn]

Any organisation (not concerned with production of the material in question) whose staff display hardcore pornography in their place of work urgently needs an inclusion and diversity officer. As, of course, does any organisation which wants to attract the best possible staff, regardless of background.

Where do the claims of hardcore pornography come from? I was under the impression that it was a mug with a page three type photo with one of the crew's heads superimposed.

If the ex-RNLI crew member created an account on Sailing Anarchy and posted a picture of it, would he be banned?

 

[Biggles Wader]

What we have here is the Joe Winspear version of events for the first time. He would have been bound by a requirement for confidentiality until the entire disciplinary process was completed or they could have sacked him for talking about it. If his version is true,had he been a paid employee, I think he may have a case for a tribunal for several reasons. The main one is that he was refused representation at a hearing, another being that the RNLI appears to have breached the requirement for confidentiality by discussing the case in public and in the media before the process was complete. I dont know if a sacked volunteer has the same rights as an employee though. I suspect not, but he would certainly have the same rights to sue if there had been misrepresentation or defamation in the mud slinging that has gone on. As I have stated before the RNLI does have the right and obligation to ensure its workplaces conform to the current law, but the consequences of imposing that can be dire if mismanaged.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Where do the claims of hardcore pornography come from?

From the RNLI, quoted on the BBC news website.

I was under the impression that it was a mug with a page three type photo with one of the crew's heads superimposed.

That has been the impression given by the Daily Mail other rent-an-outrage outlets. However, they have only ever printed mock-ups, acknowledged, if at all, in the smallest print possible. Strange that the owners of the mugs didn't get them take pictures of the originals, isn't it?

If the ex-RNLI crew member created an account on Sailing Anarchy and posted a picture of it, would he be banned?

Dunno. What are their standards like?

 

[Blue Sunray]

Strange that the owners of the mugs didn't get them take pictures of the originals, isn't it?

 

[lpdsn]

From the RNLI, quoted on the BBC news website.

...

Strange that the owners of the mugs didn't get them take pictures of the originals, isn't it?

That's the crux of it. A serious allegation that could easily be refuted if the mugs are just a bit of humour.

So it's either a hysterical over reaction or there really was something seriously beyond a joke.

I think this is a case where a picture or two would save a million words rather than a thousand. However I wouldn't condemn anyone on the basis that they didn't control what any newspaper printed about them, so the fact that the DM published a mock-up of their own devising I'd consider of pretty zero significance.

Dunno. What are their standards like?

Sailing Anarchy. Technically it would be wrong to say they didn't have any standards. But you'd have to try very hard to run foul of them. Some of the stuff published after that crazy woman was rescued in the Pacific was well beyond tabloid standards.

 

[Tranona]

OK .... so it's clear that it's yet another total over-reaction by the RNLI, just like every other case appears to have been. A truly shambolic management organisation. :ambivalence:

Richard

Why is it "clear" based on the account of only one side? Of course he is going to say it is all their fault. Does not mean that his account is true.

I have sympathy with both sides. The organisation for trying to bring its employment practices into line with other organisations, reflect the law and society norms when its relations with the people who work for it are unconventional, and employees and volunteers who come from a heritage of independence.

Important though individuals are, particularly at the sharp end of operations, ultimately it is the organisation's responsibility to create an environment that reflects the external pressures on it.

Inevitably this is likely to result in irreconcilable clashes.

 

[Seajet]

Strange that the owners of the mugs didn't get them take pictures of the originals, isn't it?
That's the crux of it. A serious allegation that could easily be refuted if the mugs are just a bit of humour.

So it's either a hysterical over reaction or there really was something seriously beyond a joke.


------------------

This seems about the gist of it to me; but if the mugs were that offensive and I was the victim, they wouldn't have lasted long - problem solved. There seems to be a fair bit of PC ' Snowflakery ' going on here ?

 

[davidej]

How very sad; when a charity has a highly paid ' inclusion and diversity manager ' my deep instinct is the lunatics have taken over the asylum !

+1

 

[Dutch01527]

.....Bullying pure and simple. Too many (almost exclusively old and male) people seem to think that 'good lads' having a bit of 'banter' should be immune from normal standards of civilised behaviour and the law. I'd bet their reaction would be a little bit different if it was their daughter or son who was targeted by these bullies.

Who has been bullied? No one in the crew was offended. The mugs were in a cupboard and then taken off station. There may be women in the crew but does not mean that they were bullied or offended. They might have thought that it was a laugh. I have some highly respectable women friends with serious jobs who have a absolutely filthy sence of humour on occasions.

What law has been broken? None unless there was bullying or offence.

What are normal standards of behaviour? People in difficult and dangerous jobs often use rough humour as a coping mechanism. Police, fire, military and nurses develop a close bond and a shared sense of humour which sometimes is a bit risqué when judged next to the standards of your local library or parish council. Look at many nurses (not old and male generally) hen parties to get a view of what is normal.

No doubt the mugs were more explicit than just a topless shot and should not have been in the station. No doubt the crew did not react well to being lectured by a Diversity and Inclusion Manager. But the escalation of the issue should have been avoided by grown up management.

My gut feel initial reaction was heavy handed, PC driven management and nothing that has emerged since has changed that. If I was a volunteer who was having a laugh with my mates with whom I had risked my life and encountered traumatic situations I would also react badly to managers who were incapable of gaining my respect by taking a mature approach.

Maybe management should have to accompany the crew on a call out, in the middle of the night, in a serious storm as part of their induction. That would melt away the snowflakes pretty quickly.