RNLI resues 'stranded yacht'

[Sybarite]

What a very strange comment bearing in mind the post you quoted was the first one that Dom has made in this thread!

Dom has in the past (and again recently) accused me of things which impugn my honour. I asked him to either justify his remarks or apologise, which any gentleman would do. In 6 challenges he has never responded and so if he addresses any remarks to me now I will not respond in any other way.

 

[Sybarite]

Apparently the majority of people on here who respond are quite happy to pay over the odds for things.

So to sum up :

1) For a similar ballpark figures of shouts, rescues and lives saved the RNLI costs 10 times more to run than the French service. That is mainly because the adminstration of the SNSM is carried out by 1200 volunteers whereas these are paid positions in the UK.
2) Boats cost significantly more in the UK. Some argue that they are better; I argue that whereas the RNLI boats are great, the SNSM boats perform the role they were designed for and indeed have certain advantages eg range over the UK boats. (The current CTT - AWB - has a range of 450nm and a top speed of 22knts)
3) The RNLI spent £170m and saved 442 lives in 2015.
4) A multivaccine costing £15 can potentially save the life of a child in Ethiopia. On that basis, £170m could theoretically contribute to saving over 11m lives in third world countries.

 

[Serin]

Apparently the majority of people on here who respond are quite happy to pay over the odds for things.

So to sum up :

.

Terrible, isn't it?

What a good job you live in France and don't have to have anything to do with this outrage. I'm sure we are all very grateful to you for your indefatigable crusade against the evil RNLI and all its wicked works. And yet, your oft (very, very oft) repeated strictures fall on deaf ears. Try as you may, it seems your noble mission to save us from ourselves ends every time in failure. The mighty citadel that is the RNLI stands ever firm.

Thank you, Sybarite, for your herculean efforts. We owe you an enormous debt of gratitude. But I'm sure nobody would blame you if you chose, at last, to divert your considerable energies to some other, less thankless, quest.

 

[Bru]

4) A multivaccine costing £15 can potentially save the life of a child in Ethiopia. On that basis, £170m could theoretically contribute to saving over 11m lives in third world countries.

Which you very well know is a totally pointless statement, theoretical or not. The RNLI cannot buy vaccines for children in Ethiopia. It is required by law to spend its income on its stated aims and objectives (and it would not be allowed to suddenly become a charity that bought vaccines for children in Ethiopia either)

The root of your problem seems to be that the RNLI, through the ongoing generosity of the British Public, has a lot more money to spend than the SNSM.

I admire the SNSM actually. And I admire the willingness of 1200 French volunteers willing to give of their time to carry out the admin (taking the figures at face value)

Perhaps that is the crucial difference. Could it be that public in the UK are perhaps (and to generalise) cash rich and time poor whereas the folks in France are time rich and cash poor?

Or maybe it's just cultural. The British give money, the French give time?

If Rear Admiral Sir Bufton Tufton leaves the RNLI a million quid in his will and the money is spent hiring a professional administrator for the next decade is that actually any different to Contre Amiral Pierre Dupont giving ten years of his time to the SNSM after he retires?

It is certainly the case that the UK model for third sector organisation admin is to use paid professional staff for core administration and I don't see that changing any time soon. It's actually damned difficult to recruit suitable administrators because despite the claims of inflated salaries in the third sector you're trying to tempt people into doing basically the same job for less than half the money they could be earning in the commercial world

The critical test is whether the organisation achieves its aims and objectives

Happily for all concerned, both the RNLI and the SNSM do just that. They do it differently but they both get the job done

 

[Giblets]

Dom has in the past (and again recently) accused me of things which impugn my honour. I asked him to either justify his remarks or apologise, which any gentleman would do. In 6 challenges he has never responded and so if he addresses any remarks to me now I will not respond in any other way.

Ahh, that would explain your post in this thread. I must remember to polish my crystal ball before reading your posts!

 

[jordanbasset]

4) A multivaccine costing £15 can potentially save the life of a child in Ethiopia. On that basis, £170m could theoretically contribute to saving over 11m lives in third world countries.

People choose to spend or donate their money in any way they want(within the law) If people wanted to donate to another charity, in Ethiopia or elsewhere, they can do and frequently do. But I do not think it is up to the state or anyone else to tell individuals they are not allowed to spend their money in any way they want or for that charity to make the decision not to spend the money on the causes it was raised for.(for one thing it is against the law)

But if we go down this route it seems to me that money could be saved by some one buying a Bavaria Yacht rather than a Hallberg Rassy (especially as the Bavaria is better anyway) On a new boat the saving would be over 100,000 pounds. That would save over 666 lives for every person who were forced to buy a Bavaria. We could even take it one step further and say no one should be allowed to buy a boat at all and use the money to save children's lives.
Let's not stop at boats either, what about large houses, we could force everyone to buy the size of house suitable to their needs. Then we have cars, clothes, expensive restaurants. Not sure how your idea will go down in France though, as they do like their luxuries as much as any one else.

 

[Lucky Duck]

http://www.ybw.com/pictures/next-generation-lifeboat-berthon-19335

 

[Bru]

http://www.ybw.com/pictures/next-generation-lifeboat-berthon-19335

Very good. Builds on what Berthon learnt from being involved in the Shannon project and hopefully will generate overseas orders galore

Before our dear friend from the other side of the channel jumps all over it though, it should be noted that the size of Shannon was limited by the need for beach launching and the max dimensions of some of the RNLI stations that will use the boat

What I'm pleased to see is a UK company competing in the world stage for the supply of SAR, pilot and workboat vessels.

We can't leave it all to the French

 

[rotrax]

The critical test is whether the organisation achieves its aims and objectives

Happily for all concerned, both the RNLI and the SNSM do just that. They do it differently but they both get the job done

Well Bru, that cuts right to the chase and is totally correct.

Perhaps we might see an end to this pointless debate now-although I somehow doubt it............

 

[Sybarite]

Very good. Builds on what Berthon learnt from being involved in the Shannon project and hopefully will generate overseas orders galore

Before our dear friend from the other side of the channel jumps all over it though, it should be noted that the size of Shannon was limited by the need for beach launching and the max dimensions of some of the RNLI stations that will use the boat

What I'm pleased to see is a UK company competing in the world stage for the supply of SAR, pilot and workboat vessels.

We can't leave it all to the French

An improvement on the Shannon...!!!! Already...??? C'est pas possible!!

Please now tell me why it is necessary to build a boathouse costing £2.6m just to house a boat? Perhaps it should be called a boat mansion?

I'm sure my French builder friend plus a handful of his Polish mates could knock up one for a quarter of the price and still make a good profit.

the size of Shannon was limited by the need for beach launching and the max dimensions of some of the RNLI stations that will use the boat

Not true: they just build new boat houses! Should that be incorporated into the cost of the Shannon too?

 

[Sybarite]

Ahh, that would explain your post in this thread. I must remember to polish my crystal ball before reading your posts!

I forgot. Not everybody follows these posts. Which is one of the reasons I draw attention to the facts. In the end of course everybody has the right to choose where they donate their money but, IMHO it is better to be in possession of the facts. Many people have indicated that they were unaware of the financial position.

 

[Sybarite]

Which you very well know is a totally pointless statement, theoretical or not. The RNLI cannot buy vaccines for children in Ethiopia. It is required by law to spend its income on its stated aims and objectives (and it would not be allowed to suddenly become a charity that bought vaccines for children in Ethiopia either)

I never for one moment suggested they should. I just believe people should be in possession of the facts before making charitable donations.

 

[Sybarite]

Very good. Builds on what Berthon learnt from being involved in the Shannon project and hopefully will generate overseas orders galore

Before our dear friend from the other side of the channel jumps all over it though, it should be noted that the size of Shannon was limited by the need for beach launching and the max dimensions of some of the RNLI stations that will use the boat

What I'm pleased to see is a UK company competing in the world stage for the supply of SAR, pilot and workboat vessels.

We can't leave it all to the French

I will be interested to see if it can compete with the French boat designs which are already being sold around the world or are being built under licence around the world - probably a more intelligent way to go.

 

[Sybarite]

I will be interested to see if it can compete with the French boat designs which are already being sold around the world or are being built under licence around the world - probably a more intelligent way to go.

In fact it's interesting that Ramsgate and Sheerness ports chose the French design for its pilot boats although the boats themselves were built at Great Yarmouth. (17.5m £1M half the price of a 13.6m Shannon).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8s2gkCU1x0

Direct comparison of a pantocarene hull with a concentional shaped hull : same day, same conditions.

Estuary Elite 17m ORC Class (French designed)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mk67joQB7ak

Halmatic Nelson 48/50

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mB-XpnjlZl0

 

[ShinyShoe]

Can't imagine there is much call for mylar hulls or beach launching on a pilot boat though is there?

Even if I wanted to buy a Shannon - I'm not sure I can knock on the RNLI door and say - here is X million build me a boat... Can I? And I'd guess it was done in a tender basis so even less likely the RNLI are out bidding on tenders.

I've not sailed the French waters but it strikes me they are rather different to UK waters with far fewer islands.

If someone has stats that are worth sharing, it would be the number of people harmed/value of assets lost as a result of delaying calling the French vs the UK, for fear of the cost of rescue...

 

[ShinyShoe]

4) A multivaccine costing £15 can potentially save the life of a child in Ethiopia. On that basis, £170m could theoretically contribute to saving over 11m lives in third world countries.

I was trying really hard not to get drawn into this Muppets thread. He assumes an individual values everyone else's life equally. Reality is few do. If my Son's life needs saved I will throw every last penny at him if that is the right thing to do.. ..if a child in Ethiopia needs saved, sad and embarrassing as it may be, I'm unlikely to throw every penny I can at them.. ..by every penny that means sell my house, my boat, stop my mobile phone, my internet...

But more importantly he is definitely misquoting the data. His £15 vaccine has a number needed to treat. The outcome of that is to prevent infection. Not everyone got infected. Even those who get infected don't all die. I'm not saying a £15 vaccine doesn't economically make sense, it almost certainly does. But given Sybarites obsession with numbers you'd think he could use ones that make sense... By having misquoted this I'm now doubting all his other "facts"

Finally since you made me rant...

Boathouses - two issues...

Your builder could build one cheaper. But it wouldn't match the design requirements for the local area to make it blend in and meet the needs of the RNLI.

The buildings may be being replaced, but the footprint remains restricted by available land, and the launching arrangements are mostly unchanged. So you have to design to fit the existing boathouses where possible, or if not possible the replacement boat house needs to fit in a similar foot print with similar launching arrangements.

 

[Sybarite]

I was trying really hard not to get drawn into this Muppets thread. He assumes an individual values everyone else's life equally. Reality is few do. If my Son's life needs saved I will throw every last penny at him if that is the right thing to do.. ..if a child in Ethiopia needs saved, sad and embarrassing as it may be, I'm unlikely to throw every penny I can at them.. ..by every penny that means sell my house, my boat, stop my mobile phone, my internet...

But more importantly he is definitely misquoting the data. His £15 vaccine has a number needed to treat. The outcome of that is to prevent infection. Not everyone got infected. Even those who get infected don't all die. I'm not saying a £15 vaccine doesn't economically make sense, it almost certainly does. But given Sybarites obsession with numbers you'd think he could use ones that make sense... By having misquoted this I'm now doubting all his other "facts"

I don't think that you got the fact that I used words like "potentially" and theoretically".

However my major point remains: I believe that a better use could be made of charitable giving than is made at present. Even if a significant portion of the giving were diverted for a year or two, that would have no impact on the RNLI's operations, given their reserves.

Finally since you made me rant...

Boathouses - two issues...

Your builder could build one cheaper. But it wouldn't match the design requirements for the local area to make it blend in and meet the needs of the RNLI.

The buildings may be being replaced, but the footprint remains restricted by available land, and the launching arrangements are mostly unchanged. So you have to design to fit the existing boathouses where possible, or if not possible the replacement boat house needs to fit in a similar foot print with similar launching arrangements.

You may or may not need a boatshed for your boat but, £11m for a shed and a ramp - come on...!!!

 

[Robin]

Bricks and mortar and concrete cost very little compared to the dirt they sit on. French dirt comes cheaper no doubt, then there are architectural and planning design features to consider. Sure you could have a LB that is permanently afloat,, no house required. One such example of a French one is at St Vaast, stuck firmly behind the closed lock gates until the tide allows it out to play hero:disgust:.
.

 

[Bru]

However my major point remains: I believe that a better use could be made of charitable giving than is made at present. Even if a significant portion of the giving were diverted for a year or two, that would have no impact on the RNLI's operations, given their reserves.

Which is, of course, complete and utter nonsense because as you've repeatedly been told (and with your claimed background ought to know) funds given to a specific charitable cause cannot legally by diverted to other charitable purposes. The best the RNLI could do (and it could be argued should do) is to provide grants to the independent lifeboats

The RNLI would be breaking the law, and the trustees liable to prosecution and potentially imprisonment, if they gave money to, say, Save the Children etc

Nor is there likely to be a detectable increase in money given to other unrelated charities should the RNLI commit long term financial suicide by ceasing fund raising for a period

People who give to a specific charity do so, for the most part, for a specific reason and are unlikely to give as much, if at all, to other unrelated charities if their chosen charity shuts up shop

You may or may not need a boatshed for your boat but, £11m for a shed and a ramp - come on...!!!

I do wish you'd stop making comments like this. They do your argument no favours.

Have you visited a modern RNLI station? They are a lot more than a "shed and a ramp"

Crew facilities, kitchen area, training room, kit store, maintenance facilities and in many cases a visitor area etc

Like the lifeboats, the RNLI is in the envious position of being able to build the shore facilities it wants rather than having to compromise because it can't afford it

 

[jonjo]

Which is, of course, complete and utter nonsense because as you've repeatedly been told (and with your claimed background ought to know) funds given to a specific charitable cause cannot legally by diverted to other charitable purposes. The best the RNLI could do (and it could be argued should do) is to provide grants to the independent lifeboats

The RNLI would be breaking the law, and the trustees liable to prosecution and potentially imprisonment, if they gave money to, say, Save the Children etc

Those of us not prone to ignorant indignation know that what he meant was that if the chartity giving public were fully appraised of the overflowing ££ coffers at the RNLI, their high budget spending habits and the low grade nature of much of their "rescues" which are little more than a marine equivalent of an RAC callout for rich boaters who skipped paying for a commercial service insurance, then even if the public sent their donations to another cause the RNLI could live for a few years off financial reserves.

But thank you for giving me an opportunity to set the record straight in a Google indexed public forum.