RNLI resues 'stranded yacht'

NormanS said:
I would normally rate the knowledge of a yacht skipper who calmly informed the CG of the fact that she had temporarily grounded, near LW, in calm conditions, against that of someone in CG ops room, who may or may not ever have been to sea. She only informed them, to save any doubt, in case someone else reported the situation.

I would imagine that the lady in question will think long and hard before volunteering similar information in the future.

After my own experience related here in #22 I will in future be very cautious in asking the CG for any information.

Is that what you want?
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I very much doubt that the CG Watch Manager who would have probably made the decision to request LB launch is someone who has never been to sea. We once launched in calm conditions to a yacht aground on a estuary bar close to LW. On the flood the tidal flow 4-5 knots broke his anchor warp and turned him 90degrees listing him almost on his beam end, swell 4-5 ft still none or little wind we got alongside took off crew and left yacht which within a hour was in pieces on a rock groyne where the tide had taken it. He had not asked for help the local CG auxiliary (not full time ) on local patrol had contacted ops room and advised LB assistance. You can never be certain of any outcome where the sea is concerned. Having been in the situation where a call for help was delayed because the vessel concerned was certain help was not needed and where the outcome was life lost it not something I would want to repeat.

Of course if you are in a similar situation again you will make your decision I hope based on a prudent assessment of the likely risk to you and your craft and take the most sensible action to ensure the safety of all on board.
 
Sybarite said:
I think a French person with half a brain would have understood the point. With some people you have to spell it out.
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Oh for heaven's sake, do shut up.

You have nil experience of the field you're talking about, from either side of the water. You have a purely bean counter's view, totally uninfluenced by actual knowledge.

The bottom line is the French do it their way, the British do it our way, and both countries are happy with that.

This constant droning on as if you are the sole light in some web of accounting scandal is ridiculous.
 
dogleg said:
I very much doubt that the CG Watch Manager who would have probably made the decision to request LB launch is someone who has never been to sea. We once launched in calm conditions to a yacht aground on a estuary bar close to LW. On the flood the tidal flow 4-5 knots broke his anchor warp and turned him 90degrees listing him almost on his beam end, swell 4-5 ft still none or little wind we got alongside took off crew and left yacht which within a hour was in pieces on a rock groyne where the tide had taken it. He had not asked for help the local CG auxiliary (not full time ) on local patrol had contacted ops room and advised LB assistance. You can never be certain of any outcome where the sea is concerned. Having been in the situation where a call for help was delayed because the vessel concerned was certain help was not needed and where the outcome was life lost it not something I would want to repeat.

Of course if you are in a similar situation again you will make your decision I hope based on a prudent assessment of the likely risk to you and your craft and take the most sensible action to ensure the safety of all on board.
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In the case that I mentioned with the lady skipper's boat grounded, there were none of these potential dangers. I know, because I was only a cable away at the time. The greatest potential danger to her boat, was some high speed craft, like a Lifeboat, turning up with a huge wash.

Re my own incident, there was no danger, and I had merely asked if the CG could contact someone on my behalf. I get the impression that incident numbers seem to mean something.
 
NormanS said:
In the case that I mentioned with the lady skipper's boat grounded, there were none of these potential dangers. I know, because I was only a cable away at the time. The greatest potential danger to her boat, was some high speed craft, like a Lifeboat, turning up with a huge wash.

Re my own incident, there was no danger, and I had merely asked if the CG could contact someone on my behalf. I get the impression that incident numbers seem to mean something.
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It seems to me that your essential argument is that the CG should never task a LB unless the vessel concerned asks for assistance, even when local knowledge suggests otherwise. Do you think it was wrong for us to launch in the incident I quoted, or that of Channel Yacht? There are many more I could relate. BTW did the LB arrive at full bore ILB or ALB? I don't think its a numbers game, possibly a desire to avoid an inquest, something I have experienced.
 
It's also quite possible that the LB wasn't tasked as an urgent call.

For a yacht aground call, even where the casualty was happy to wait it out, I'd probably give a heads up to the local lifeboat LOM anyway, so they're situationally aware of what's going on on their patch. I've known on a few times the LB to respond with "OK, we'll go and have a look anyway" as it's useful training for them and is as much further incident prevention.

Bottom line is did they come along and upset you - and if not, what's the problem?
 
chanelyacht said:
Oh for heaven's sake, do shut up.

You have nil experience of the field you're talking about, from either side of the water. You have a purely bean counter's view, totally uninfluenced by actual knowledge.

The bottom line is the French do it their way, the British do it our way, and both countries are happy with that.

This constant droning on as if you are the sole light in some web of accounting scandal is ridiculous.
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When you deliberately misunderstand something in order to create a polemic, I may choose to react and I do not need your permission to do so.
 
chanelyacht said:
It's also quite possible that the LB wasn't tasked as an urgent call.

For a yacht aground call, even where the casualty was happy to wait it out, I'd probably give a heads up to the local lifeboat LOM anyway, so they're situationally aware of what's going on on their patch. I've known on a few times the LB to respond with "OK, we'll go and have a look anyway" as it's useful training for them and is as much further incident prevention.

Bottom line is did they come along and upset you - and if not, what's the problem?
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I repeat that in my own case, where I merely asked for a request to be passed on, there was absolutely no excuse for wasting either RNLI resources or crew's time. Even once I was underway, sailing to the village, the CG refused to recall the Lifeboat. Both I and in the other case, the lady skipper, were in much better positions to assess the situations, than someone sitting in an office miles away. Neither of these were calls for assistance.
 
Time to get the popcorn out!

I wonder when Alan Pardon is retiring and perhaps Sybarite can apply for the job?
 
NormanS said:
I repeat that in my own case, where I merely asked for a request to be passed on, there was absolutely no excuse for wasting either RNLI resources or crew's time. Even once I was underway, sailing to the village, the CG refused to recall the Lifeboat. Both I and in the other case, the lady skipper, were in much better positions to assess the situations, than someone sitting in an office miles away. Neither of these were calls for assistance.
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As I say, the RNLI may have chosen to come to you. Whether it's wasting their time and resources is very much their call.

The CG don't "recall" lifeboats as such - we can release from a task (which may well have happened, as you wouldn't know what was being discussed on Ch0) but from that point they are very much a free agent, and it is their decision whether to return to station, continue with you, or for that matter, go fishing.

I'm acutely aware that the ops room staff may be many miles away from the incident, and I won't say whether I think the incident was handled appropriately or not, because I wasn't there and haven't read the log / heard the tapes. However, please balance your independence on that time with the jobs that ops rooms handle when callers insist no assistance is required because they "don't wish to be a bother" yet the situation is rapidly becoming very different on the ground.

On balance, I think a thread blasting HMCG for getting a resource out where one may not have been needed is a lot better than a thread reviewing an MAIB report when nothing was done.

Happy to discuss this more via PM if you like.
 
Sybarite said:
There you go - off into your little make-believe world again. The French services save people the way the RNLI does. Statistics are similar. However there is a charge for saving the boat which is normally covered by insurance.

/QUOTE]

Did not say they did not rescue people. however, the RNLI has a policy of never charging if they bring a boat in - they just reserve the right not to do it if it constitutes a danger to the crew. The priority is saving lives. If the French service want to act as salvors for a fee that is fine - but it is just a different policy from the RNLI.

The £350m quoted by Gove is just as meaningless as the figures you quote - out of context and not meaning what you think they might mean. Pot and kettle.

BTW you have to admit that the RNLI do far more for safety at sea and for a wider range of water users than the much more narrowly based French service with its narrower remit and limited funding. No doubt it does a good job ON ITS OWN TERMS.

Nothing wrong in claiming that the British maritime rescue services are the best in the world. Would be disappointing if they were not, with the longest history, best funding, best equipment, best people etc.
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Tranona said:
Sybarite said:
There you go - off into your little make-believe world again. The French services save people the way the RNLI does. Statistics are similar. However there is a charge for saving the boat which is normally covered by insurance.

/QUOTE]

Did not say they did not rescue people. however, the RNLI has a policy of never charging if they bring a boat in - they just reserve the right not to do it if it constitutes a danger to the crew. The priority is saving lives. If the French service want to act as salvors for a fee that is fine - but it is just a different policy from the RNLI.
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May I remind you of the practice described by other contributors. Having rescued the people the RNLI crews may be authorized to use the boat at their own expense to carry out a salvage claim on the abandonned boat. I didn't say; it others did.

The £350m quoted by Gove is just as meaningless as the figures you quote - out of context and not meaning what you think they might mean. Pot and kettle.
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I'm used to this sort of argument on here : "You're wrong because I say you are wrong."

BTW you have to admit that the RNLI do far more for safety at sea and for a wider range of water users than the much more narrowly based French service with its narrower remit and limited funding. No doubt it does a good job ON ITS OWN TERMS
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.

No I don't admit it. The SNSM has a larger fleet and has more lifeguards. If the coastline isn't as long, the holiday period is longer and there is a greater concentration of holiday makers and boaters in a given zone. If you look at shouts, rescues, lives saved, both organisations are in the same ball-park. But don't forget how the RNLI (as many others on here attest) massage the figures : all those shouts where help was neither asked for nor required.

Nothing wrong in claiming that the British maritime rescue services are the best in the world. Would be disappointing if they were not, with the longest history, best funding, best equipment, best people etc.
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Why do you say they are the best people - other than for reasons of nationalistic chauvinism ?
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Sybarite said:
May I remind you of the practice described by other contributors. Having rescued the people the RNLI crews may be authorized to use the boat at their own expense to carry out a salvage claim on the abandonned boat. I didn't say; it others did.
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There you go again

You have been told, time and time again, that whilst this used at one time to happen on very rare occasions, it is no longer the case (and was very exceptional even when it did happen)
 
Bru said:
There you go again

You have been told, time and time again, that whilst this used at one time to happen on very rare occasions, it is no longer the case (and was very exceptional even when it did happen)
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Next you will be asking us to believe the Cornish no longer lure boats onto the rocks to wreck them, how gullible do you think we are :D
 
Sybarite said:
Tranona said:
May I remind you of the practice described by other contributors. Having rescued the people the RNLI crews may be authorized to use the boat at their own expense to carry out a salvage claim on the abandonned boat. I didn't say; it others did.



I'm used to this sort of argument on here : "You're wrong because I say you are wrong."

.

No I don't admit it. The SNSM has a larger fleet and has more lifeguards. If the coastline isn't as long, the holiday period is longer and there is a greater concentration of holiday makers and boaters in a given zone. If you look at shouts, rescues, lives saved, both organisations are in the same ball-park. But don't forget how the RNLI (as many others on here attest) massage the figures : all those shouts where help was neither asked for nor required.



Why do you say they are the best people - other than for reasons of nationalistic chauvinism ?
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Once again your first point is wrong as you have been told over and over again.

You quoted Gove to illustrate others using meaningless figures. Totally unrelated to the topic of course. So I just reminded you that you constantly quote meaningless figures - just like Gove. Not a national characteristic, simply illustrating that you are just as guilty as he is.

Why do you concentrate on just leisure related activities, which only represented a proportion of the RNLIs activities. Much of the current expenditure on new boats and stations is to meet demands that a largely unrelated to leisure activities. After all the RNLI was established long before any water related leisure activities were even thought of. You really need to recognise that the RNLI (and other UK maritime rescues services) are very different from those in France and it is pointless trying to make the sort of comparisons you do.

When I say the best people, does not mean other organisations don't have good people. However the RNLI people excel in a much wider range of activities than other organisations.
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chanelyacht said:
I wasn't aware French public contributions to the SNSM went to the RNLI?
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Sorry, it's you two being out of order on this little nugget.

It's perfectly reasonable to compare two things without one of them necessarily being a subset of the other. An elephant's weight is about 3% of a Boeing 747's, but you don't have to feed the aeroplane sticky buns or pump Jet A1 into the animal.

I read Sybarite's sentence exactly the way he intended it, and it didn't even occur to me that it could be read the way Richard apparently did. Hence my Fry meme response because I assumed he was deliberately taking the piss. Having cleared up the ambiguity for you, you do yourselves no credit by continuing to childishly "misunderstand" on purpose.

Pete
 
Sybarite said:
Tranona said:
May I remind you of the practice described by other contributors. Having rescued the people the RNLI crews may be authorized to use the boat at their own expense to carry out a salvage claim on the abandonned boat. I didn't say; it others did.
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They are wrong, and you keep repeating it. Let me make this very clear - use of an RNLI craft for paid salvage, either officially or unoffically, is not allowed and does not happen. Indeed, it's a dismissable action.

No I don't admit it. The SNSM has a larger fleet
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No, it doesn't. The SNSM class jetskis as boats, the RNLI doesn't. The RNLI also has around 50 more stations, plus the relief fleet and the flood rescue teams.
 
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