RNLI Rescue charges

[Aja]

His girlfriend was effectively left in command of the boat as he lay drunk in his bunk. He was found like that when the lifeboat came alongside. As I mentioned she had no sailing experience. Quite rightly, she panicked.

Donald

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[Aja]

His girlfriend was effectively left in command of the boat as he lay drunk in his bunk. He was found like that when the lifeboat came alongside. As I mentioned she had no sailing experience. Quite rightly, she panicked.

Donald

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[claymore]

Jes goes tae show

They lassies can hod their drink better than the lads.

<hr width=100% size=1>regards
Claymore
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[Aja]

Re: Jes goes tae show

Sorry. Seemed to have developed a bit of a stutter today...

Donald

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[Twister_Ken]

Alternatives

In a SE gale he could have reached west and taken a look a Brighton, but that also might have been a tad scary, or continued on to the Solent - best part of 10-15 hours sailing depending on boat and tides. Or thrashed on up to Dover, where he could probably have entered. Or he could have forgotten about England and gone to look at somewhere like Dieppe. Or, probably the best choice, sailed a few miles offshore, heaved to, made a cup of tea, and waited for a change. Much easier to suggest that with the benefit of hindsight and from a nice office desk though.

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[townquay]

Although I do not wish to sound condescending and I know my opinion is of value to me only, I think the reply here by James J. is one of the most sensible I've seen in my limited experience of this site.


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[Twister_Ken]

Charitable status

It's not that the RNLI would jeopardise is charitable status by charging, but that the donors' perception of how the organisation is funded might change, especially after one or two stories along the lines of "Lifeboat wins £100,000 salvage award" started to appear. And then the voluntary contributions start to diminish, and the stable nature of RNLI's funding which has stood it and us in good stead for generations begins to wobble.

As for CEO pleading, par for the course in any charity, especially one like RNLI which is expansionist (lifeboat stations on the London river, ferchrissake).

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[tcm]

Re: TwitMaster

I don't know the event itself. I sort-of agree with claymore's idea. But the difference between the skiing (where rescue is charged) and boating (where it isn't) is that the skipper is already charged with a much higher degree of responsibility for self and craft. The moment the word of others encroaches on that total responsibility, then weather forecasts or pilot guides and so forth might well be called as "witnesses" to counter the advice of the HM. What if a borderline "stay-out" command resulted in the boat being lost at sea - does the HM pay for a new one?

I have only rarely had this encroachment onto skipper responsibilty, and usually only when chartering. The sunsaily lot instruct people where to moor, when to leave, and leap aboard from a dinghy to "help moor up". If ever these happen i am acutely aware that they are just telling me where to moor, or when to leave - they are not saying "We are issuing instructions which relieving you of skipper's responsibilty and duty to make a judgement - all consequences from now until end of trip will be our responsibility". Neither was the HM. So, skipper ignores advice - but what if he had stayed out and boat was knocked down? How badly injured would a crewmemember have to be before being allowed to ignore the "don't come in" instruction?

Sunsaily and other charter staff go round the boats whilt still on charter and tell people to put on an extra spring. I say I'm the skipper and I judge it to be suitably attached - you put more string on it if you want. Or they say that anchoring here is not as good as using one of the mooring buoys, even when we've been stationary for several hours in windy conditions and don't want to go up into the buoys with all the mozzies and pay $20 for the priviledge. I bunked out of the boring briefing once cos i reckoned that being at or near destination earlier was better than sitting around for an hour, given the forecast. If they jump aboard when coming to moor up, I make sure that their staff are entirely at the helm and have taken over the boat as skipper - I fiddle with fenders.

But of course, it would be sensible for the insurers to insist on training or even withdraw cover as they can, anytime. Alternatively, perhaps the boat should wear a special ensign. Or, the RYA could award Twitmasters, for those with esp bad judgement.

Though, for individ, cases, the exact circumstances are important. In charge of a boat and drunkenbly incapable puts a very different slant on the whole thing, where perhaps even criminal charges could be brought. But having HM's deliver yes/no judgements seems a good idea on the surface (which i agree should have been heeded, and in SE gale, um, in Eastbourne, twould have been progressively easier to go to any more westerley port, incl brighton frexample) but in practice too much beauracy possible, surely?


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[tcm]

Re: worse than that ...

If the rnli starts to charge, then the skipper could refuse help. The boat goes down or up the beach , then insuer pays. Oh, look, there those ambulance-chasing rnli types off to make a few quid.

How much would they charge? Bearing in mind it is 80 quid in zermatt for a ambulance to take you fromthe bottm of the train to the clinic 200 yards away, it might be quite expensive. My wife will want to know if they take visa, so she gets erm, air miles.


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[claymore]

We\'ve all tried that

But I think you'll find the Jermain is impervious to such advances and you'll have to keep paying for YM. Nice try though!

<hr width=100% size=1>regards
Claymore
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[sailbadthesinner]

Re: RNLI have answered this many times

claysie
this point was made in the rnli mag about three issues back by a retired canadian who was ex master of a ship or something nautical ( may even have been canadian coastguard). He basically said if you got into to trouble as result of your own actions you should be charged. he wrote in after reading a report 9 cannot rememeber which one)
Anyway RNLI response was an emphatic NO. They are there to offer assistance to those in danger at sea no matter how or why they are in that position. The last thing they ever want to do is for someone to place themsleves or more importantly their crew in more danger for fear of being charged.

personally i can see how a crew of two on a small boat in those conditions on a maiden voyage could think that a port entry is the lesser of two evils

judging from the article it seems an unfortunate conspiracy of weather inexperience fatigue and maybe sheer bloody fear of staying out there.

i think they suffered enough losing their boat and almost coming pretty close to losing their lives. My initial thoughts on reading the article were much the same as yours. but it is was a skippers call and as such we who were not there should respect it.
now those eejits who set their kids adrift in inflatables with an offshore wind. that is another thing they should be flogged on the beach as warning to others

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=red>if guinness is good for you. i must be very very good</font color=red>

 

[sailbadthesinner]

Re: maybe not what he\'s after

maybe he wants some JJ cookery tips or new cheese toastie recipies /forums/images/icons/wink.gif
and not a free YM subscription or a trip in the photographers rib

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=red>if guinness is good for you. i must be very very good</font color=red><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by sailbadthesinner on 08/07/2003 12:49 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[tcm]

Re: Heavy fine for TK

in a SE, you carry on to solent surely, with water easing al the time? Could park up in flat water in portsmouth frexample. Not crosschannel cos twill be worse with onshore nastiness! I hereby command you to fine yourself £50 quid.

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[jamesjermain]

Aw...shucks! nm

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[claymore]

Devious wee mannie

Yin Jermain mus' be good fer a pair o' his cast aff oilies - when ye think aboot it - we bocht em thru the subs tae his rag an wi all that scoffin - he mist hae grawn oot o' his auld yins?

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Claymore
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[ParaHandy]

Re: oooohhh ....

... the options for running a Thames rescue service were MCA, PLA (police) or RNLI and the service was to conform to Marchioness inquiry terms. The Sec of State didn't have too much of a "hard" decision - no third way 'ere mate ... ?? So yer bein' disingenuous .....

The RNLI, though, got it funded - the thames is the only full-time station - and got themselves in the "face" of all those rich gits in london ...

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[Aeolus_IV]

Re: Charitable status

I can see that I lit the blue touch paper and stood well back, but perhaps I can still feel my eye brows smoldering a tad.

I can agree that not all HM's may know all details about the water in their area, but I would confidently expect them to know the entrance to thier own harbour - especially after confering with the local RNLI skipper.

Like many harbours Eastbourne has its good and bad weather directions - and to be honest an E to SE in any more than a F6 is really tricky. There are shallows which extend out past the end of the west arm which can reduce water depth to as little as 1.5 mtrs on a spring low (though at the moment they are keeping on top of dredging out the entrance), these can create some significant standing waves which are at odds with the apparent conditions. Combine this with a significant cross tide and a reasonably narrow channel and you have a difficult entrance. Then to spice things up, just 100 mtrs off the east arm lie the last remains of a ship - the Barnhill - some rather large lumps of cast iron that have resisted many attempts to move them over the years. All of which are described in the pilotage books.

This is a deceptive harbour entrance, and those unfortunate people who lost their boat were the third of fourth boat in the last 12 months or so. One of yacht hulls still lies inside the harbour, mast and keel missing.

The HM's office has a good clear view of the entrance, they are in the ideal position to give good, sound advice about entry into the harbour. I would listen to it.

Yes - perhaps charging people who have ultimately lost their boat is harsh, and I may have over reacted - but I have known some of the crew on the Life Boat for possibly twenty years, and would like to think I'd know them for a further twenty at least. Yes they volunteer for this, and for this we hold them in respect and are grateful for their tireless efforts and often brave deeds. But should we be condoning situations which could be easily avoided that place these people at unnecessary risk? I think not.

If those poeple felt that they could not have stayed at sea for any time, they could have called the HM and requested the Life Boat, which could have come out them them off shore away where the is space and time to make a balanced decision. There the crew could have been safely removed if that was deemed necessary and other arrangements brought together.

It is not really the money which is important, its the poeple, both sailors and Life Boat crew.


Regards, Jeff.


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[DanTribe]

I had a similar experience some years ago but with a happier outcome.
We were approaching Sovereign by night but could not identify the lights, so contacted the lock by VHF. He confirmed that the light bouys were out of action but he had us on radar, so come on as we were.
Soon after that we saw a flashing blue light and headlights flashing morse U at us.
Panic! got back onto lockkeeper who said "its only HMCG, just ignore them, you'r OK"
The coastguard came aboard later and told us that we had been reported as being in trouble because we kept "zig-zagging", ie tacking.
Shuold we have been charged for the Coastguards efforts?


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[Twister_Ken]

Re: oooohhh ....

Met Police Thames Division has done it since the days of Peelers and could have taken it forward with fast boats.And used the kit to do lots of other police work as well.

Strangely, it took ten years from the Marchioness disaster for the RNLI stations to be established.

What next? RNLI on the Norfolk Broads? Windermere? Grand Union Canal? Serpentine?

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[DanTribe]

I had a similar experience some years ago but with a happier outcome.
We were approaching Sovereign by night but could not identify the lights, so contacted the lock by VHF. He confirmed that the light bouys were out of action but he had us on radar, so come on as we were.
Soon after that we saw a flashing blue light and headlights flashing morse U at us.
Panic! got back onto lockkeeper who said "its only HMCG, just ignore them, you'r OK"
The coastguard came aboard later and told us that we had been reported as being in trouble because we kept "zig-zagging", ie tacking.
Should we have been charged for the Coastguards efforts?


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