A1Sailor
...
Thank for that sobering tale...
RN submarine seamanship strikes (almost) again.
- Thread starter JumbleDuck
- Start date
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
MRDA: Mandy Rice-Davies applies. Though I suspect that in a collision between a Stena ferry and a submarine, the submarine would have the rougher time.
lpdsn
Well-Known Member
Pretty impressive stealth ferry to be able to sneak up like that.
Quandary
Well-Known Member
They bought them in Finland and they are very fast indeed, passage time is as good as the guzzling jet thingys that used to send the big pressure wave ashore as they went up the loch.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Indeed, though shifting the termini from Stranraer to Cairnryan and from Belfast to the arse end of nowhere have helped a lot. After two fishing boats were swamped and the occupants drowned in Loch Ryan, the high speed things were restricted to 10kt (I think) there, which added a lot of time. As did the "Dead Slow" crawl up Belfast docks.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Nah, it just shows that RN lookout is on a level with their navigation skills.
Stemar
Well-Known Member
OK, it was nasty and vindictive but, national pride and a fantastic propaganda opportunity apart, were the Germans wrong in law? He was a civilian and he attacked an enemy vessel, after all.
Mark-1
Well-Known Member
I'd be interested in the answer to that question. On the one had a merchant ship defending itself from a vessel trying to capture it seems perfectly reasonable on the other hand I would fully expect a civilian attacking a ship in port to be prosecuted.
Anyone know what the law actually states?
EDIT:
I'll answer my own question. I'm quite surprised, but then it wasn't unanimous:
German post-war confirmation of court-martial[edit]
On 2 April 1919, a German international law commission named the "Schücking Commission", after its chairman Walther Schücking, reconfirmed Fryatt's sentence:[15][16]
The execution by shooting of Captain Charles Fryatt, which was given by the Court Martial Bruges, due to the sentence of the court martial proceedings on 27 July 1916, contains no violation of international law, The Commission apologizes most vividly for the hurry in which the judgement was enforced.
The Commission's ruling was not unanimous. Two members of the legal review panel, Eduard Bernstein and Oskar Cohn, dissented because in their opinion Fryatt's sentence had been a severe infringement of international law.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Fryatt#Court-martial
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East Cardinal
Well-Known Member
Why do you say that? Presumably they saw each other as no collision occurred.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Doesn't follow. Did either have time to take avoiding action or was it just good luck that there was no collision. The big question is "What the hell was a submarine playing at, lurking at periscope depth on a busy shipping route?" Here is what the ferry has been up to for the past couple of days:
As you'll see, its track is predictable within a band about a mile wide. Anyone waiting invisibly within that band is just asking for trouble.
chrishscorp
Well-Known Member
Ramming them is self defence in my book.
East Cardinal
Well-Known Member
Doesn't follow. Did either have time to take avoiding action or was it just good luck that there was no collision. The big question is "What the hell was a submarine playing at, lurking at periscope depth on a busy shipping route?" Here is what the ferry has been up to for the past couple of days:
As you'll see, its track is predictable within a band about a mile wide. Anyone waiting invisibly within that band is just asking for trouble.
That last paragraph is just a stupid comment. It also doesn't explain your comment about lookut in the RN.
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Quandary
Well-Known Member
Surely the sub was probably heading North or south so crossing the ferry route, if he could not see the ferry and monitor its position adjusting his speed accordingly there must be something seriously wrong. Some one spotted his periscope and told the ferry captain who logged it. There is no suggestion of any danger?
A few years back on passage from Carrick to Gigha on a really sunny but cold morning we encountered a thick layer of mist, could see about 5 boat lengths but it is hard to judge, getting nervous as we were approaching the Larne Cairnryan ferry route, the boat suddenly lifted about 6 feet and slapped down again and there was the roar of the engines of the HSS, both seemed to happen simultaneously indicating he had been very close, seemed to be going flat out past us but we never saw him. I more or less convinced myself that the layer of mist was thin enough that the top of our mast was visible above the mist or he would not have passed so fast and close, alternatively he just never knew we were there.
A few years back on passage from Carrick to Gigha on a really sunny but cold morning we encountered a thick layer of mist, could see about 5 boat lengths but it is hard to judge, getting nervous as we were approaching the Larne Cairnryan ferry route, the boat suddenly lifted about 6 feet and slapped down again and there was the roar of the engines of the HSS, both seemed to happen simultaneously indicating he had been very close, seemed to be going flat out past us but we never saw him. I more or less convinced myself that the layer of mist was thin enough that the top of our mast was visible above the mist or he would not have passed so fast and close, alternatively he just never knew we were there.
penberth3
Well-Known Member
I thought that's what submarines do?
maxi77
Well-Known Member
That all depends, in this case the ferry would have been hit by the fin which is toughened for breaking through polar ice, might make a chunky hole in a ferry which could be problematic. On the other hand the submarines watertight integrity would not be affected though quite a bit of repair work would be in order.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
A stupid comment? You honestly think it is sensible to lurk in a near-invisible boat in the middle of a busy shipping area, and worse than that in the middle of a track through that area used by large vessels many times per day.
Even if the crew didn't have the sense to check the charts, they should have been able to detect the ferry miles away and keep well clear. Failure to do so is a clear breach of IRPCS.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
The MAIB investigation suggests that they are taking it rather more seriously that "Ooooh, a periscope". Quite apart from that, had the ferry made a late course change - as it was perfectly entitled to do - that safe distance could easily have vanished. It would be interesting to know how many of those - not you - defending the sardines would also defend someone who crossed the North Channel at night in an unlit small yacht and had a near miss with a ferry.
I think they spend most of their time skulking in deep water, ready to commit genocide for the Queen.
True, but the fin isn't that big, is it, and those ferries are quite deep.
jamie N
Well-Known Member
"A Submarine at periscope depth will not close to within 1500yds of an FV without her specific consent." I'm guessing that's the same for a ferry?
Seems fairly obvious that something's gone awry if the ferry got a scare.
A cover up by denial of the distances, a reprimand or a new career selling ice cream near Helensburgh for 'an' Officer? What's your call JumbleD?
Seems fairly obvious that something's gone awry if the ferry got a scare.
A cover up by denial of the distances, a reprimand or a new career selling ice cream near Helensburgh for 'an' Officer? What's your call JumbleD?
Resolution
Well-Known Member
JD
What evidence do you have that the sub was "lurking" and not making way on a N/S passage?
Secondly, has anyone said how close the two vessels came? Was the periscope sighted very close by or say a mile away? (Can one see a periscope a mile away??)
Either you have some more facts than have been disclosed in this thread, or you are perhaps letting your prejudices run away with you a bit?
Peter
East Cardinal
Well-Known Member
You obviously have some axe to grind on this topic. Without the report I expect we cannot know exactly the circumstances.
But IRCPS does not give ferries right of way because they use the same routing on each trip.