Reversing woes.

[solent clown]

Where we moor, our pontoon has a mud bank about three boat lengths away directly in our path. It become too shallow to skirt it very widely to port, and the pontoons make it just about impossible to come in from the stardboard. Coming in on the engine is easy, but getting out going astern is a pig, especially if the wind is blowing in the wrong direction.
This Trident steers very badly in reverse, and despite a lot of practice I find it very difficult to get any meaningful steerage. I have tried all the normal things, as I said, had lots of practice. It just seems the rudder isnt any good in reverse. (yes I know about prop walk etc)
Lifge would be a lot easier if I could reverse the boat onto the pontoon for convenience of setting off, and for access, but I am not confident to try it just yet until I have more control.
Any suggestions or ideas? I even considered rigging a heath robinson rudder at the bows for karen to steer us in with as we went astern.

In short, I need to skirt a mudbank to fit into a tight spot on the pontoon, in reverse. Without running aground :encouragement:

24ft, fin keel, 1gm10 inboard, 3 blade prop, steel rudder. Sails down when mooring/setting off

 

[{151760}]

Can you turn the boat around in its berth using ropes? Can you run an anchor out from the stern before leaving, or take a line somewhere to control the boat as you leave? Perhaps a long warp from the bow to your own cleats will stop you going onto the bank, and another one from the stern to pull it round, both doubled back. Can you come into another berth, then manoeuvre into yours from there? Can you swap you berth for a more convenient one?

 

[solent clown]

Can you turn the boat around in its berth using ropes?

NO, there is another boat in the way
Can you run an anchor out from the stern before leaving, or take a line somewhere to control the boat as you leave?
running a line might work if Karen doesnt panic
Perhaps a long warp from the bow to your own cleats will stop you going onto the bank, and another one from the stern to pull it round, both doubled back. Can you come into another berth, then manoeuvre into yours from there? Can you swap you berth for a more convenient one?

I like the berth as it is just about the deepest here, so if I can make things easier then we are well sorted, as it is now it is just stressful getting out going astern

 

[solent clown]

it is not as tight as this sketch, but that is the general layout

2017_06_24_11_15_56 by mark punksteel, on Flickr

 

[Triassic]

Can you drop your crew off on the hammerhead before berthing? If so run a line from your port bow along the port side outside everything, around behind the transom and into the cockpit. Then head down the starboard side of the entrance channel to your berth, throw the line to your crewmember who is waiting on the end of your pontoon, turn to port and put the engine in reverse. Provided your crew have taken a turn or two on a cleat this will also help stop the boat and pull the bow to port, you then simply have to reverse back whilst they control the bow for you. Would that work for you?

 

[Hoolie]

Have you tried coming in astern a bit faster than you're used to, then selecting neutral as you pass the mud bank to glide in without having propwalk. Our boat steers quite well going astern when the prop isn't turning. Then as you approach your berth select forward to get some extra water flow over the rudder for steerage?

 

[johnalison]

A smallish boat like a Trident should not be impossible to steer astern. You are going to have to do it from time to time, so I think that a better solution is to get more practice. The first requirement is never to fight the wind but use it to turn the boat whenever possible. From your drawing, it looks as if you have difficulty when the wind is coming from the 'south'. It looks as if your best option on difficult days is to back out, round the shallows and continue right out, when the wind would help you steer by weathercocking. Trying to back to the 'north' and then force the bows round to your intended exit might well not work. Coming out in ahead would give you the same problem with the risk of hitting boats to the left of the picture.

Learning to manage a boat is astern is an essential part of living in a marina, even if it is hard for older boats not designed for the purpose. In some ways, moving astern is easier than ahead, but the trick is to be bold with the engine and get plenty of way on quickly, and also to develop awareness of the boat's movement in relation to its surroundings. Practice and more practice

 

[solent clown]

Can you drop your crew off on the hammerhead before berthing? If so run a line from your port bow along the port side outside everything, around behind the transom and into the cockpit. Then head down the starboard side of the entrance channel to your berth, throw the line to your crewmember who is waiting on the end of your pontoon, turn to port and put the engine in reverse. Provided your crew have taken a turn or two on a cleat this will also help stop the boat and pull the bow to port, you then simply have to reverse back whilst they control the bow for you. Would that work for you?

Might do yes, I could try it with my son and see if Karen would be up to it

 

[solent clown]

Have you tried coming in astern a bit faster than you're used to, then selecting neutral as you pass the mud bank to glide in without having propwalk. Our boat steers quite well going astern when the prop isn't turning. Then as you approach your berth select forward to get some extra water flow over the rudder for steerage?

I havet tried gliding yet, will get out in the river again and have a go

 

[solent clown]

Learning to manage a boat is astern is an essential part of living in a marina, even if it is hard for older boats not designed for the purpose. In some ways, moving astern is easier than ahead, but the trick is to be bold with the engine and get plenty of way on quickly, and also to develop awareness of the boat's movement in relation to its surroundings. Practice and more practice

Yes, more practice I guess, I have spent hours out there it just hasnt clicked yet. Maybe I need to practice on a less windy day. Ever since we bought it back it has been very windy,

 

[Kurrawong_Kid]

Yes, more practice I guess, I have spent hours out there it just hasnt clicked yet. Maybe I need to practice on a less windy day. Ever since we bought it back it has been very windy,

I too have spent many practising hours to no avail with a fin and Skeg boat with a slightly offset prop. If there is any wind the head blows off to port and the prop wash to starboard counters any attempt to straighten up in the confines of a marina. Up to now I have used warps but increasing age has finally defeated me and I have had to resort to having a bow thruster fitted.
With a 24ft Trident would a 6hp outboard be a possibility? It’s what a lot of Vega owners do to manoeuvre going astern.

 

[solent clown]

I too have spent many practising hours to no avail with a fin and Skeg boat with a slightly offset prop. If there is any wind the head blows off to port and the prop wash to starboard counters any attempt to straighten up in the confines of a marina. Up to now I have used warps but increasing age has finally defeated me and I have had to resort to having a bow thruster fitted.
With a 24ft Trident would a 6hp outboard be a possibility? It’s what a lot of Vega owners do to manoeuvre going astern.

That might be a better plan, I am fitting one as an aux anyway...

 

[{151760}]

it is not as tight as this sketch, but that is the general layout

2017_06_24_11_15_56 by mark punksteel, on Flickr

That's certainly a tricky mooring. If you can get a line around the stern of the boat next to you to their finger without snagging or damage, you could use that to pull the stern round and motor out forward. Alternatively take an anchor by dinghy to the area you've marked shallow (it doesn't matter what kind of anchor, weld up a grapnel type from re-bar, like the fishermen use. You don't want it to hold too well.) and pull on it as you reverse out. Once again you can motor out forwards. No need to involve your crew they can concentrate on 'roving fendering'.
EDIT:
Take a line right across to a berth opposite, pull yourself across, keeping a bow line on your own berth. Motor out forwards.
Don't neglect using a jib to get the bow round if the wind is suitable. Avoid the strongest tidal flow.

 

[Pye_End]

Bursts of forward to angle the boat, then into reverse to make some distance is the best way for my long keeler. Might work for you?

 

[Rafiki]

There are only two definitive solution here;
1) buy another boat that reverses better
2) move to another mooring

 

[{151760}]

There are only two definitive solution here;
1) buy another boat that reverses better
2) move to another mooring

While that's a little extreme, I wouldn't swap my non-Marina mooring for yours!

 

[solent clown]

There are only two definitive solution here;
1) buy another boat that reverses better
2) move to another mooring

thank you for your positive input. I hope you do not mind if I put it to one side for now and listen to the grown ups for a while

 

[solent clown]

just to be clear, it isnt as tight as I drew it. But that gives the general idea. I would like to be able to reverse well enough to be able to just leave the pontoon going forward from now on. The next set of pontoons are empty right now, though not so deep, but I could use them to practice without fear of harming other boats I suppose

 

[solent clown]

While that's a little extreme, I wouldn't swap my non-Marina mooring for yours!

Thing is, this mooring is walking distance from my house. We manage to get out twice a week at least tides permitting. If I can just crack the reversing lark then we have real hassle free sailing ahead.

 

[{151760}]

Thing is, this mooring is walking distance from my house. We manage to get out twice a week at least tides permitting. If I can just crack the reversing lark then we have real hassle free sailing ahead.

I can see why you want to persevere. Working sailing boats used to manoeuvre like this all the time, though, granted, not from Marina finger berths. Running lines all over the place, and using anchors was normal, as was towing by dinghy, or using oars (sweeps). While these things raise eyebrows in these days of reliable motors and bow-thrusters, they still work. You may need to work out different solutions for different combinations of tide and wind. Or perhaps I'm over thinking it and after more practise you'll be in and out like a ferret up a drainpipe. Good luck anyway.