Return to commercial sailing ships

[lustyd]

There's not much we can do if the terrorists are the ones building them!

 

[Kelpie]

There are about 2500 of these very small nuclear "generators" strewn across the Russian countryside.
They were often used to power remote light houses.

View attachment 161926

That's quite a different type of device, and risk. All you can do with Sr90 is put it in a dirty bomb.

 

[penfold]

Nice hobby, no possibility to scale it up; the shipping industry is run by cheeseparing clockwatchers who make Scrooge look munificent, whatever means of decarbonising propulsion is found, this isn't it.

 

[MisterBaxter]

Although if I was single and bored with a bit of money to invest, I do think.there could be a viable business in a sailing ship that could sell retail from a temporary shop on deck when in harbour. You could run down to the Bordeaux region and sell posh English goods - Stilton, wine, good cider - then restock and head for Cornwall to sell nice French products to the tourists. Then head south in the autumn for some similar run somewhere with better weather.

 

[Kelpie]

Although if I was single and bored with a bit of money to invest, I do think.there could be a viable business in a sailing ship that could sell retail from a temporary shop on deck when in harbour. You could run down to the Bordeaux region and sell posh English goods - Stilton, wine, good cider - then restock and head for Cornwall to sell nice French products to the tourists. Then head south in the autumn for some similar run somewhere with better weather.

I think we'd need to have some sort of, oh I don't know, common market for that to work.

 

[lustyd]

I think we'd need to have some sort of, oh I don't know, common market for that to work.

Not really, the current system works it just has a bunch of paperwork and taxes that wouldn't otherwise be necessary but it's still a viable option

 

[MisterBaxter]

Yes - it would definitely have been a whole lot easier pre Brexit! But as it's purely fantasy for me I can just not fantasise about the paperwork, so the impact is minimal.

 

[14K478]

There’s a number here that everyone overlooks:

The volume, measured in ton-miles, of deep-sea trade in goods has doubled every 15 years since 1946.

 

[Bajansailor]

You can save a lot of fuel by slowing merchant ships down. Bigger ships are much more fuel efficient per ton of cargo moved than are smaller ships. Ships are more fuel efficient than any other way of moving goods.

And…

Why I’m backing a return to sailing ships - Splash247

I don't think the author @Kukri of the Splash article will mind if I tag him here.

Grain de Sail seems to be quite a success story, re a small 'modern' sailing ship starting up and competing in the transatlantic trade -
Our cargo sailboat Grain de Sail

And they are currently building a much larger vessel, which will be launched at the end of the year -
Our cargo sailboat Grain de Sail II - 350 T

The first Grain de Sail is a good follow on from Atlantic Clipper which was designed in the early 80's by David Thomas (of Sigma and Sonata fame) and built by Don Fuller Love in Devon - she was trading between England and the Caribbean for (I think) a few years quite successfully.
Here are some photos and drawings I found on the internet of her. They were originally planning on building a sister ship as well, but I don't think this ever happened.





Discharging a motley assortment of breakbulk cargo in the Caribbean



Even a tractor from England at Kingstown, St Vincent -



And a nice evocative photo of her outward bound across the Atlantic under full sail -



Atlantic Clipper is still sailing commercially today, but she now carries passengers rather than cargo -
Atlantic Clipper 2D2N - Sailing Whitsundays

Atlantic Clipper | Vessels | Whitsundays Sailing Adventures

Ecoclipper is mentioned in the BBC link in the OP -
EcoClipper | Emission Free Shipping and Travel

And the Dykstra Ecoliner design looks very nice - but I think they are waiting patiently for investors.....
WASP (Ecoliner) - Dykstra Naval Architects



There are still some other old traditional sailing vessels making a living by carrying cargo under sail, like the Fair Transport schooner Tres Hombres -
https://fairtransport.eu/en/our-fleet/tres-hombres/

And the Timbercoast vessel Avontuur - she was still carrying cargo under sail between the islands in the Caribbean up until the late 1990's.
She has more recently had an extensive refit.
https://timbercoast.com/en/ship/#:~:text=The AVONTUUR is a two,by Dutch Captain Paul Wahlen.

The Sail Cargo folk have been building (for the last few years) a traditional timber square rigged sailing cargo vessel in Costa Rica - I think that they started off sailing on Tres Hombres.
https://www.sailcargo.inc/en/ceiba

The general consensus seems to be that it is difficult to make carrying cargo under sail be profitable (for the older vessels at least), but if they can carry 'trainees' (ie fare paying passengers - and they can carry up to 12, and still be a cargo vessel) then this helps a lot.

 

[oldbloke]

This seems to be a worse problem in the UK than elsewhere.
France have banned short haul flights where there is a rail alternative.
Somebody should Rishi that next time he gets on his private jet or helicopter.

It still costs a lot more. Its just that the tax payer pays, not the passenger

 

[laika]

A good article I remembered reading last year about Grain de Sail which Bajansailor mentions above:
‘It’s a little bit of utopia’: the dream of replacing container ships with sailing boats

At the time it got me thinking about the possibility of a regular transatlantic passenger service focusing on speed over carrying capacity for eco-conscious billionaires.

 

[penfold]

A good article I remembered reading last year about Grain de Sail which Bajansailor mentions above:
‘It’s a little bit of utopia’: the dream of replacing container ships with sailing boats

At the time it got me thinking about the possibility of a regular transatlantic passenger service focusing on speed over carrying capacity for eco-conscious billionaires.

Eco-conscious billionaires will fuel their Gulfstream G4s on bio-fuel made from algae or something. None of them will be sailing anywhere, except around the cans at the Monaco Classics or Les Voiles de Saint Tropez maybe.

 

[14K478]

I think that just as motor racing does sometimes improve the cars that we drive so both the long distance sailing races that we associate with Les Sables d’Olonne and the inshore racing for the America’s Cup can produce fast and efficient sailing cargo carriers.

We do have the problem of the cargo:

With liquid cargo there is no problem, you can have a sailing tanker tomorrow.

The same goes for liquid gas cargoes.

Dry cargo in its various states is a real problem because we have spent the last 75 years working on ever better, ever cheaper and ever faster ways to load and discharge bulk and general cargo into and out of hatches, including the use of Malcolm McLean’s great invention which we call the ISO container, and the modern container ship.

The sailing gear is in the way!

Solve this one and the sailing cargo ship becomes a realistic possibility.

 

[boomerangben]

The real solution is to stop buying fast fashion that's worn a few times and replaced, and other unnecessary tat from the far east. There will always be a need for efficient sea transport, but if we reduce it to a minimum, it'll be good for everyone. Same with the billion airline passenger capacity mentioned in the other thread. Accept that the days of jetting to Phuket for a holiday or Vegas for a fancy wedding are over, and we'll have a chance of keeping the planet habitable. It'll also be good for our bank balances!

But if pensions are invested in consumer growth, is it really good for the wallet?

 

[billskip]

Providing the skipper doesn't go too far and start flogging us.

Some pay good money for that....

 

[westernman]

I think that just as motor racing does sometimes improve the cars that we drive so both the long distance sailing races that we associate with Les Sables d’Olonne and the inshore racing for the America’s Cup can produce fast and efficient sailing cargo carriers.

We do have the problem of the cargo:

With liquid cargo there is no problem, you can have a sailing tanker tomorrow.

The same goes for liquid gas cargoes.

Dry cargo in its various states is a real problem because we have spent the last 75 years working on ever better, ever cheaper and ever faster ways to load and discharge bulk and general cargo into and out of hatches, including the use of Malcolm McLean’s great invention which we call the ISO container, and the modern container ship.

The sailing gear is in the way!

Solve this one and the sailing cargo ship becomes a realistic possibility.

All the sailing ships we know of today were extremely small in cargo capacity compared to something like the Emma Maersk and other modern box ships.

For a sailing ship, you need to consider also the environmental effects of the making, repairing and replacing the sails and sailing gear.

For a comfortable cruising boat for crossing oceans, the Dashews worked out that burning diesel was cheaper than sailing.

Also check out this thread on this forum:-
Motor cheaper than sail.. ?

 

[AntarcticPilot]

All the sailing ships we know of today were extremely small in cargo capacity compared to something like the Emma Maersk and other modern box ships.

For a sailing ship, you need to consider also the environmental effects of the making, repairing and replacing the sails and sailing gear.

For a comfortable cruising boat for crossing oceans, the Dashews worked out that burning diesel was cheaper than sailing.

Also check out this thread on this forum:-
Motor cheaper than sail.. ?

Basically, anything that requires more crew than present ships do won't happen. Also, anything that requires anything like the maintenance a conventional rig does won't happen either. Days in port doing maintenance are expensive! A ship is only earning money when it is travelling.

As I said, wind power may well be part of the solution, but if it is, it won't look anything like a conventional rig, and almost certainly won't be made from canvas. Think wind turbine blades, not sails.

 

[newtothis]

Basically, anything that requires more crew than present ships do won't happen. Also, anything that requires anything like the maintenance a conventional rig does won't happen either. Days in port doing maintenance are expensive! A ship is only earning money when it is travelling.

As I said, wind power may well be part of the solution, but if it is, it won't look anything like a conventional rig, and almost certainly won't be made from canvas. Think wind turbine blades, not sails.

This is what a commercial 'sailing' ship looks like. Note the funnels at the back; these are 'wind-assist' vessels.