Response from Chloe Smith (Red Diesel)

[Elemental]

I have mailed my Belgian courtesy flag to the Belgian Embassy with a covering note explaining that I will no longer need it.

Brilliant - well done sir!

 

[GlennG]

How about talking to your marinas about their attitude to the red/white divide? Some of them may well see the need to provide white as well (or instead of) red diesel. Particularly those marinas that see a lot of EU traffic in both directions and those with big thirsty mobo customers who channel hop. Once one opens up on the South coast, watch it become a magnet for fuel sales.
As Cloe says, it's a commercial issue now.
In Belgium they were simply told to steam clean their tanks and sell only white. They did just that. Fishermen et Al hardly ever used the marinas' pumps anyway.
Although the French and Dutch are not following Belgium's hard line, you can bet their C&E are watching developments carefully. Their yachtsmen will be returning home with red otherwise.

I would imagine that the days of red in the south east are getting numbered.

The main issue I would have thought is the number of mobo owners who consume large quantities of fuel and thus make a large saving with the 60/40 split. I'm sure they'd tend to favour red diesel given the choice.

Raggies, OTOH, use little fuel so make up a minority of fuel sales by volume.

Thus I would like to see some form of mandating of white diesel especially where the "vast majority" of users are leisure. For example Shotley, Leavington, Woolverstone, Ipswich x2 all flog red when few if any commercial boats buy it.

The real challenge is locations where there's a larger proportion of commercial users. In those cases, the 'fudge' would be OK. Although it will be troublesome to foreign visitors, but even that could be worked around if, say, some form of subsidy from a tourism budget was used to finance a white pump, e.g. a one-off grant.

 

[RAI]

...The main issue I would have thought is the number of mobo owners who consume large quantities of fuel and thus make a large saving with the 60/40 split. I'm sure they'd tend to favour red diesel given the choice. ...

Let's hear it from the south coast mobo's? If channel hopping is their game, then the fines will be proportional to the tank size. How would they trade-off fuel saving verses risk of fine? I get the impression they could have the same cost white for red by cruising at 19 knots instead of 20.

 

[maby]

In our marina, sail outnumbers steam many to one - pehaps we can convince the management to hold a referendum - I think a switch to white would win easily.

 

[Elemental]

The main issue I would have thought is the number of mobo owners who consume large quantities of fuel and thus make a large saving with the 60/40 split. I'm sure they'd tend to favour red diesel given the choice.

Raggies, OTOH, use little fuel so make up a minority of fuel sales by volume.

Odd, isn't it, that raggies can heat their boat and charge their batteries so much more efficiently that mobo's...

 

[maby]

Odd, isn't it, that raggies can heat their boat and charge their batteries so much more efficiently that mobo's...

Well, Miao! I think most of it goes to power the champagne chiller!

 

[Beadle]

"On a boat that has been legally able to use red the traces may well be allowable"

With all respect - this does not help

"May well be" is not really meaningfull in legal terms.

Either a thing is legal or it is not

If you are to be fined a 4 figure sum you need to be very sure of what is and isn't legal.

The fact is we pay tax on the 60% of red diesel so its legal. For other countries to say despite the tax we say its illegal because its a certain colour is nonsense. It gives the ability to impose fines and ultimately confiscate many thousands of pounds in property without any legal process od any appeal.

It is pure fascism.

 

[sailorman]

"On a boat that has been legally able to use red the traces may well be allowable"

With all respect - this does not help

"May well be" is not really meaningfull in legal terms.

Either a thing is legal or it is not

If you are to be fined a 4 figure sum you need to be very sure of what is and isn't legal.

The fact is we pay tax on the 60% of red diesel so its legal. For other countries to say despite the tax we say its illegal because its a certain colour is nonsense. It gives the ability to impose fines and ultimately confiscate many thousands of pounds in property without any legal process od any appeal.

It is pure fascism.

we in fact pay tax on all of it BUT at differing levels

 

[maby]

"...

The fact is we pay tax on the 60% of red diesel so its legal. For other countries to say despite the tax we say its illegal because its a certain colour is nonsense. It gives the ability to impose fines and ultimately confiscate many thousands of pounds in property without any legal process od any appeal.

It is pure fascism.

Unfortunately, a previous government signed us up to the Treaty of Rome which, with all the other treaties and directives that have come along since then, says that it is not legal. It is pure EU federalism - which can be difficult to distinguish from fascism sometimes!

 

[Grumpybear]

Unfortunately, a previous government signed us up to the Treaty of Rome which, with all the other treaties and directives that have come along since then, says that it is not legal. It is pure EU federalism - which can be difficult to distinguish from fascism sometimes!

given that the EU was designed by communists, that simply goes to show that the difference between fascism and socialism is just semantic.

 

[Elemental]

Either a thing is legal or it is not

If you are to be fined a 4 figure sum you need to be very sure of what is and isn't legal.

It is legal in the UK. It is illegal in Belgium.

The fact is we pay tax on the 60% of red diesel so its legal. For other countries to say despite the tax we say its illegal because its a certain colour is nonsense.

It is pure fascism.

Here we go again. The tax has nothing to do with it. The transgression is the use of marked diesel in the propulsion fuel of a pleasure craft.

It gives the ability to impose fines and ultimately confiscate many thousands of pounds in property without any legal process od any appeal.

Are you sure there is no right of appeal? Where have you heard that?

 

[maby]

The ironic thing about most of the arguments against the Belgian stance on marked diesel is that they revolve around our national sovereignty to do what ever we want with them having no right to disagree. They similarly claim that their national sovereignty allows them to outlaw red diesel leaving us no right to disagree!

 

[maxi77]

"On a boat that has been legally able to use red the traces may well be allowable"

With all respect - this does not help

"May well be" is not really meaningfull in legal terms.

Either a thing is legal or it is not

If you are to be fined a 4 figure sum you need to be very sure of what is and isn't legal.

The fact is we pay tax on the 60% of red diesel so its legal. For other countries to say despite the tax we say its illegal because its a certain colour is nonsense. It gives the ability to impose fines and ultimately confiscate many thousands of pounds in property without any legal process od any appeal.

It is pure fascism.

In reality other countries can have any laws they want, and when you are there your options are to comply or not, not usually picks up penalties.

Try diving a diesel car in the UK with a hint of red in the tank and find out what those nice people at HMRC think, even if you had bought the stuff originally for your boat and paid 100% duty on it.

 

[Beadle]

"Here we go again. The tax has nothing to do with it. The transgression is the use of marked diesel in the propulsion fuel of a pleasure craft."

The tax has everything to do with it.

Almost all red diesel is tax free - or at least a lower rate of tax.

The legislation has the sole purpose of preventing people from evading tax by using fuel taxed at the lower rate.

The colour is simply the means of identifying the fuel.

Although it is clear we are not evading tax we get fined on the quite spurious reason that the fuel we used is dyed.

There is no loss of tax revenue

There is no wrong done

It is purely and simply a form of words used to justify the victimisation of British people.

The only effect is to make it effectively impossible for British yachts to visit mainland Europe. I have no doubts that there will be no action taken against European yachts that top up in the UK.

 

[Beadle]

"In reality other countries can have any laws they want, and when you are there your options are to comply or not, not usually picks up penalties."

Err

No

The whole point of the EU is that the rules apply equally to all countries who are members.

This specific interpretation is cleaarly directed at one country.

 

[maby]

"In reality other countries can have any laws they want, and when you are there your options are to comply or not, not usually picks up penalties."

Err

No

The whole point of the EU is that the rules apply equally to all countries who are members.

This specific interpretation is cleaarly directed at one country.

It is clearly directed at the only country that chose to ignore the directives and not take the opportunity to comply during the official period of grace. France, Belgium, holland, Germany - all used red diesel the same as us ten years ago - and all converted to white during the derogation period. Now, don't get me wrong - I am a violent Europhobe and would happily see us withdraw from the EU tomorrow - but while we remain in, we cannot be too outraged if they expect us to obey the rules.

 

[wizard]

It is clearly directed at the only country that chose to ignore the directives and not take the opportunity to comply during the official period of grace. France, Belgium, holland, Germany - all used red diesel the same as us ten years ago - and all converted to white during the derogation period. Now, don't get me wrong - I am a violent Europhobe and would happily see us withdraw from the EU tomorrow - but while we remain in, we cannot be too outraged if they expect us to obey the rules.

+1

 

[Koeketiene]

In reality other countries can have any laws they want, and when you are there your options are to comply or not, not usually picks up penalties.

Are you being deliberately obtuse, or does it come naturally?

When you're in another country, since when have you ever had the choice to comply with the local legislation or not? And not expect to get fined?

What next? People from the continent driving cars over here on the right?
After all, it's legal on the continent and they just choose not to comply.

 

[prv]

Although it is clear we are not evading tax we get fined on the quite spurious reason that the fuel we used is dyed.

One can hardly call it spurious if it's the law. Which it appears that it is.

The only effect is to make it effectively impossible for British yachts to visit mainland Europe. I have no doubts that there will be no action taken against European yachts that top up in the UK.

I don't know what the enforcement history looks like so far, but the Dutch and Belgians appear to believe that action will be taken against them. Our East Coast colleagues tell us that yachts from those countries are staying away now.

Now, don't get me wrong - I am a violent Europhobe and would happily see us withdraw from the EU tomorrow - but while we remain in, we cannot be too outraged if they expect us to obey the rules.

Exactly.

Pete

 

[Koeketiene]

I don't know what the enforcement history looks like so far, but the Dutch and Belgians appear to believe that action will be taken against them. Our East Coast colleagues tell us that yachts from those countries are staying away now.

Over the years far more Dutch and Belgian yachts than UK boats have been fined for having red diesel.
The do not believe that action will be taken against them, action is already being taken to fine them.