Report pushes for light dues and registration for leisure boaters

[nimbusgb]

I would not expect a single person posting on this board to have any great hardship with that.

Well I guess that makes you wrong. I for one think that we should be teaching people a little more general responsibility for their own actions. Teach people that life bites if you approach it wrong. No amount of legislation, rules or licensing is going to make up for the numpty who is determined to go out in an open boat in a F10!

If someone sees something regulated they generally believe that it is safe. if it turns out not to be they try to blame anyone but themselves!

 

[timbartlett]

Perhaps the only good thing about this damned report is that it least it has the honesty not to pretend that registration or licensing has anything to do with "safety".

It is quite up-front about it: its proposals are about extorting money and the practicalities of doing so.

What is frightening is the sheer arrogance involved. Clearly, these people no longer feel the need to pretend that what they are doing is in anybody's interests except their own.

 

[Major Catastrophe]

I'm sure you can, but I think you've missed the point.

Anyway......

I didn't miss the point, I just didn't want to get into one of your interminably long 'discussions'.

 

[TEPER]

And another thing...

Surely all of the tax we now pay on red diesel could cover the cost of these lights and marks - it's got to be used on something

 

[fireball]

Are you really suggesting that MOTs, driving tests and other compulsory legislation that has been applied to road vehicles has not prevented deaths? Do you really think that similar schemes for boating would not prevent deaths? Really?

Your first point is correct, it is a different issue from what is being proposed, so I'll best leave that discussion for another time.

Here's a statistic for you .... 99.5% of people that go to sea come back unharmed without requiring rescue ... why penalise them because of the minority?
Your following suggestion of self checks is laughable - if someone isn't capable of being responsible for their own safety at sea with the information and training currently available then they are unlikely to be able to do their own safety checks - so it will become another government institute at ever increasing cost.

Years ago I attended a DS theory course - everyone passed, but I wouldn't have let the course tutor on my tender, let alone skipper it or the big boat. As for some of the students - even after lengthy adult learning classes they were incapable of working out simple primary port depths with any degree of accuracy and confidence - yet they passed the course. I hope, for their sake that they have learned and eventually understood - but the fact is - they passed a DaySkipper course - and as that is likely to be the basis of any skipper licence it doesn't say much for the 'ticket' and is unlikely to impact on the 0.5% who require assistance.

Sailing experience is ongoing and nobody has 'learnt it all'. In most peoples opinions (and usually the ones with experience) it doesn't need further regulation. I'm quite happy to encourage courses though - Insurance co's could help with that by offering good discounts for various courses completed.

 

[Major Catastrophe]

Here's a statistic for you .... 99.5% of people that go to sea come back unharmed without requiring rescue

So you are saying that of every 200 people who put to sea, 1 is killed, injured or has some other serious mishap?

I expect it is much safer than that.

 

[fireball]

So you are saying that of every 200 people who put to sea, 1 is killed, injured or has some other serious mishap?

I expect it is much safer than that.

Oh I dunno ... we have a DAKA round these parts ... he's pretty dangerous ...

 

[Major Catastrophe]

Oh I dunno ... we have a DAKA round these parts ... he's pretty dangerous ...

Good point. We have Kawasaki.

 

[fireball]

These blummin bikers ... they get everywhere ... perhaps we should introduce some sort of compulsory tax and tests on them .... oh ...

 

[Kukri]

Just to repeat - this is NOT a "new tax". Yachts used to pay light dues.

 

[fireball]

Yes - based on registered tonnage? Which would then require all relevant vessels to register their boats .. ? And those that don't?

The main issues are
1) What level of light dues is appropriate, given the huge disparity in usages of resource
2) How will these be administered? What cost to administer and police (ie what's the net gain)
3) Is this the start of a slippery slope (or slipway?) leading to greater regulation over boating?

 

[timbartlett]

Years ago I attended a DS theory course - everyone passed...

There is no such thing as "pass" or "fail" at Day Skipper level, nor on any RYA shore-based course.
What you get at the end of the course is a course completion certificate.
It is exactly what it says it is: it proves that you have completed the course.
It is not a qualification.

 

[timbartlett]

Is this the start of a slippery slope (or slipway?) leading to greater regulation over boating?

Interesting, isn't it, that so many people talk about things like this as being the start of a slippery slope or the thin end of a wedge.
It's not the start of the slope or the thin end of the wedge.
We are already a long way down the slope, and the wedge is already quite thick.
But what they have done (obviously successfully!) is ratcheted up the taxes and eaten away at our liberties without (most of) us actually noticing.
When, I wonder, are we (in general) going to realise what is going on, stop being so bloody supine, and get off our arses, and start making life difficult and/or unpleasant and/or expensive for the bastards?
Yes, it will involve some effort. But the longer we leave it, the more difficult it will be.

 

[fireball]

There is no such thing as "pass" or "fail" at Day Skipper level, nor on any RYA shore-based course.
What you get at the end of the course is a course completion certificate.
It is exactly what it says it is: it proves that you have completed the course.
It is not a qualification.

At the end of our DS theory course there was a test - you had to 'pass' this test to get your completion certificate. In my mind - and that of most people who have attended these courses - to receive the course certificate equates to having 'passed the course' - I assume these are not handed out to everyone who just attends the courses without proving that they have learnt a prescribed amount - certainly wasn't in the dinghy courses I attended and subsequently taught on.

As a matter of point - I did not call DS theory or practical a qualification ...

 

[Major Catastrophe]

When, I wonder, are we (in general) going to realise what is going on, stop being so bloody supine, and get off our arses, and start making life difficult and/or unpleasant and/or expensive for the bastards?
Yes, it will involve some effort. But the longer we leave it, the more difficult it will be.

Count me in.

 

[Channel Ribs]

There is no such thing as "pass" or "fail" at Day Skipper level, nor on any RYA shore-based course.

While I am a practical instructor so cannot quote chapter and verse on the theory courses, I know of instructors who have not issued the certificate and suggested further work that was required for the candidate. Pass and Fail are not words that leap out of the RYA instructors handbook, but successfulcompletion does mean that you satisfied the instructor of your ability.

 

[oldgit]

"We already have MOT's, TAX, Insurance and driving tests for cars/bikes ... and it doesn't prevent accidents "

but we do have just about the safest roads in the world bar a few european countries where even stiffer rules esp. speed limits apply !

 

[oldgit]

"Motor vehicles are regulated left right and centre, it doesn't stop thousands of people being killed on the roads"

The point could be how many would die if the regulations did not exist.......me.... I quite fancy driving on the right.

 

[fireball]

"We already have MOT's, TAX, Insurance and driving tests for cars/bikes ... and it doesn't prevent accidents "

but we do have just about the safest roads in the world bar a few european countries where even stiffer rules esp. speed limits apply !

Still doesn't stop the idiots does it ... and even those of us who (think we) can drive are not devoid of accidents ...
You mention - 'esp. speed limits' ... well - cars/vans and motorbikes can operate high speed - most boats travel under 30mph all the time and the vast majority of sail boats are less than 15mph (most of the time).

I just don't currently see the need to legislate or introduce checks where education is doing a pretty good job.

 

[White Horse]

Lights out

If I only sail during the day do I still have to pay.

If I use my own maps and do not use their boys why should I have to pay.