Regalvanizing anchor chain

[Billyo]

Hi all

Just wondering how many times you can regalvanise an anchor chain? I have a high test grade 4 chain that has been redo by the previous owner but it's in a bit of a state again.

 

[Refueler]

Hi all

Just wondering how many times you can regalvanise an anchor chain? I have a high test grade 4 chain that has been redo by the previous owner but it's in a bit of a state again.

I'd be asking myself - why is it 'in a bit of a state again' ......... re-galv once maybe - but twice ?

 

[Neeves]

Much depends what you mean by being in a bit of a 'state'

10% loss of wire is a common measure of when to retire chain (for scrap - or securing a number of dogs). You thus need to go through the complete chain and measure as you go. The ends tend to not to be worn - its the middle, assuming it has been end for ended, that takes the most abrasion. The first 3 or 4 links, and the bitter end, can corrode faster than the bulk of the rode - the latter because it is kept damp and the former because it is contact with different alloys of steel, the anchor shank and the shackle. Cut those few links off. You need to measure the steel, not steel and rust . There will be wear at the crowns, where 2 crowns rub together, and the long of the links that rub on the seabed. If you have sections with big flakes of rust it is unlikely that you can extend life. Most yachts use over specified chain, its too big and thus too strong, and being G40 (instead of more common G30) offers you some wriggle room.

If its rusty and difficult to measure - attach to the tow bar of your car, or the strong point for towing - and drag over a beach or down a country lane - that will remove the rust (and any paint). Don't get too excited or you will wear the underlying steel. All the rust needs to be removed to allow re-galvanising and this is commonly achieved in an acid bath (by the galvaniser) or less common - grit blasting. Paint is not removed by acid and galvanisers thus don't like painted chain - so you abrading it will help the process (if you go that route). Any paint, or rust, left on the chain will not take galvanising

The regalvanising process will do no harm to the chain - it will be a G40 chain if you regalvanise. There is no reason why you cannot regalvanise a number of times - as long as the chain has not been worn or stretched. In fact if this were your forever yacht you could keep regalvanising as soon as you detect wear of the gal and before there is wear on the underlying steel. You will know if it has been stretched - it will not fit the gypsy. But a G40 chain is obviously stronger than G30 and as long as it is not undersized then stretching should not be an issue

You problem may be finding a local galvaniser. If you need to send it to Highland Galvanisers I suspect the transport costs, there and back (Cumbernauld), might result it being a better option to scrap and buy new. Ideally you want to have someone local and you can drop it off and collect yourself - but if its 10mm chain (or 100m of 8mm) - it is almost unmanageable (for you) to move it.

You seem to be sure its a G40 quality, that to me implies it was bought quite recently as usage of G40 is a recent trend in Europe (and not at all, or rare, in Australia). Any idea how old the chain might be? Good galvanising should last 4 years, or 1,000 x 24hr days.


If you are buying new chain then is the time to review whether you need the size of chain you are using - might it be better to downsize (though this will need you to invest in a new gypsy - and they are not cheap). However you can save weight and offers more room in your chain locker (and reduces the problem of towering) - if this is important to you. Smaller chain is cheaper - and might offset some of the costs for the new gypsy.

Good luck

Jonathan

 

[doug748]

Hi all

Just wondering how many times you can regalvanise an anchor chain? I have a high test grade 4 chain that has been redo by the previous owner but it's in a bit of a state again.

Mine has been done once and it on it's way again. There are two problems; first is getting someone to do it and getting the chain to them, second is the cost. When I enquired a couple of years ago the price had trebled from 10 years previously. God knows what it will be this time next year

It's now better economics to buy new. Sad because local industry saves energy, preserves skills, provides jobs and sustains local communities.

.

 

[vyv_cox]

Mine has been done once and it on it's way again. There are two problems; first is getting someone to do it and getting the chain to them, second is the cost. When I enquired a couple of years ago the price had trebled from 10 years previously. God knows what it will be this time next year

It's now better economics to buy new. Sad because local industry saves energy, preserves skills, provides jobs and sustains local communities.

.

Yes, exactly why very few companies do it now. When I first had mine done the cost was 1/3 of new chain cost. Second time for another boat it was 1/2 new chain. That was about 10 years ago. Around 5 years ago BE Wedge dismantled their chain line as it was no longer economic.

 

[Billyo]

Thanks for the replies
In answer to the questions, the chain is from the US, it was regalvanised 6 years ago and not used for the next 2 years, but over the last four years its been in in use coinstantly. I cant tell how much of the actual link I have lost at the moment due to the rust, but its not flaky rust, and I have this afternoon arranged with a local guy to borrow his ute (the local rental company were not impressed with the idea!) and take it for a spin down the beach. Once that is done I can measure it properly.

Im currently in Australia, and dont have enough time to get a chain here from the US before I leave for Indonesia. If I import a chain to Indo they charge 30% tax on the chain AND the shipping, which gets eyewateringly expensive!

I have a US windlass from a very small manufacturer who forge their own gypsys, I took mine into a local shop in Brisbane and they quoted 3k to forge a replica to suit australian short link chain.....

There is a local company here that regalvanises although Ive yet to find out the price, but will measure the chain and if I am still within 10% of the original size will try and get it done.

 

[Neeves]

Thanks for the replies
In answer to the questions, the chain is from the US, it was regalvanised 6 years ago and not used for the next 2 years, but over the last four years its been in in use coinstantly. I cant tell how much of the actual link I have lost at the moment due to the rust, but its not flaky rust, and I have this afternoon arranged with a local guy to borrow his ute (the local rental company were not impressed with the idea!) and take it for a spin down the beach. Once that is done I can measure it properly.

Im currently in Australia, and dont have enough time to get a chain here from the US before I leave for Indonesia. If I import a chain to Indo they charge 30% tax on the chain AND the shipping, which gets eyewateringly expensive!

I have a US windlass from a very small manufacturer who forge their own gypsys, I took mine into a local shop in Brisbane and they quoted 3k to forge a replica to suit australian short link chain.....

There is a local company here that regalvanises although Ive yet to find out the price, but will measure the chain and if I am still within 10% of the original size will try and get it done.

I note you are in Brisbane. I'm not strong on west coast opportunities, nor Tasmania, for you - but know people who might offer suggestions - if push comes to shove.

There is a galvaniser in Bundaberg, fairly well known, and, at least one, in Sydney - both of whom will galvanise chain. There is International Galvanisers (IG) in Newcastle, just north of Sydney, in Melbourne and Brisbane They galvanise(d) for PWB (and Anchor Right) in Melbourne and Sarafini in Brisbane - both chain makers. IG are seriously big and in the US, I understand have stopped galvanising for small lots (you and me) - historically it has been different here. It might also be worth contacting Serafini and PWB - both might make a G43. PWB was recently bought by Kito, Japanese lifting company, who also own Peerless (USA's biggest chain maker). But I also heard PWB (and presumably Kito) saw the writing on the wall and don't make small link anchor chain here anymore - and buy from China - changing times - but I don't have verification. PWB make in Melbourne but have an office in Brisbane and Serafini are Brisbane based.

If you contact CMP they have a fairly decent presence here and I know they had G43 in stock a few years back (in Sydney) - and may still have some (this is an American spec, not a metric G40). CMP make the Rocna Anchor and chain under their Titan brand - both made in their own factory in Ningbo in China. CMP's office is Sydney - about 10 minutes from where live. Australia is effectively a metric market but we (and NZ) are a cross roads for the international sailing community and you may find some G43 tucked away - looking for a home. Have you tried Chains, Ropes and Anchors in NZ for chain.

Most gypsies are windlass specific but another option is Maxwell (windlass) of NZ but a big presence in Brisbane. They make their gypsies in NZ and there is an outside chance they would fit your shaft (or could be easily machined to fit) and might fit your windlass. If you are really nice when you talk to Maxwell - they will know much more of the local scene than me and might provide your answers. I have dealt with them over the last 3-5 years and find them exceptionally supportive.

Cast your net a bit wider . Post here what options, if any, you develop and I'll comment on what I think might be the best way to move.


In your spin down the beach - check the chain as you go, as I said don't get too excited. But also end for end the chain. The chain should get all metallic and shiny. Once you have exposed raw steel - it will start to rust - immediately (you will not see it but will see it the next day). If you are going to re-gal it would be a good idea to talk to the galvaniser, run it down the beach, again, and deliver it immediately to the galvaniser (so local would be good) this will make their cleaning (pickling with acid) easier and the gal will 'take' better. If you were to deliver further afield - say Sydney - get your self a 40 gallon oil drum, run the chain down the beach, drop in the oil drum, spray some diesel on the chain, enough to soak it, and then seal the drum. That will reduce the surface rust enough for the trip to Sydney - it will still need pickling but better than leaving open to the elements. Grit blasted is a preferred state for galvanising.

I think that will keep uni busy for a an hour or so.

Good Luck

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

Billyo

edit and further thought

I have assumed your chain is American and Imperial and that your gypsy matches - hence you are using G43 chain (an American spec). Grade L (metric G30 in Oz and NZ) matches metric G30 or G40 - so if you have G40 metric (I'm not aware of a G40 US spec but you mentioned G40) - your gipsy would match a Grade L

Imperial chains are all different sizes so Imperial BBB, G30, G43 and G70 are all different link sizes though some gypsies are accomodating. Its a complete nightmare - praise due to metrification. I'm not aware that any imperial short link chain fits a metric windlass. To complicate matters further your chain will be measured in parts of an inch - not millimetres, 1/4", 5/16th", 3/8th" which have metric conversions but are incompatible with the metric equivalent gypsy.

So if someone tells you 5/16th" is the same as 8mm - be cautious - Imperial 5/16th" has a longer link and 5/16th comes in different formats viz: BBB, G30, G43, G70 and these are all different and then to confuse further they also use metric in the lifting industry

J

 

[Billyo]

Hi

Thank you for the detailed reply, amazing info!

The chain in 3/8 acco system 40 ht, I spoke to Peerless who bought acco and they work with PWB kito here in Australia but dont as a rule export this chain to them as there is no market here for imperial chain. Peerless have however said they will export to me direct but it's the transport and import tax that is killing me..... I will get on the phone tomorrow to CMB and try New Zealand as well.

I also have a bbb gypsy on the same windlass and was looking at the specs for 10mm din776 which are very close to 3/8 bbb so will take that gypsy into a chain store as well to see if it might work.

I'm currently in Townsville and my neighbour here mentioned the name of a company who regalv but it escapes me now so will ask again tomorrow. If the consensus is that you can regalvanise twice I think that will be the easiest and most affordable route.

 

[vyv_cox]

Hi

Thank you for the detailed reply, amazing info!

The chain in 3/8 acco system 40 ht, I spoke to Peerless who bought acco and they work with PWB kito here in Australia but dont as a rule export this chain to them as there is no market here for imperial chain. Peerless have however said they will export to me direct but it's the transport and import tax that is killing me..... I will get on the phone tomorrow to CMB and try New Zealand as well.

I also have a bbb gypsy on the same windlass and was looking at the specs for 10mm din776 which are very close to 3/8 bbb so will take that gypsy into a chain store as well to see if it might work.

I'm currently in Townsville and my neighbour here mentioned the name of a company who regalv but it escapes me now so will ask again tomorrow. If the consensus is that you can regalvanise twice I think that will be the easiest and most affordable route.

You can regalvanise grade 40 as many times as you like. It is a normalised (= annealed, almost) steel with some alloy elements but not heat treated. Galvanising temperatures will have no effect on its strength.

 

[Whiterose]

Not worth the effort!

 

[Neeves]

Not worth the effort!

It is worth the effort as the alternative is that he will need to buy a new gypsy. The OP has a windlass from a small US manufacturer and the gypsy will need to be imported - and they may not make metric gypsies.

It may turn out to be more sensible to buy both a new windlass and a new chain - but that depends on prices. The nearest galvaniser I know is (I'm guessing) the one in Bundaberg which (another guess) is 1,000km south of his location. Transport alone is going to be a killer.

Because the distances are large there may be a galvaniser in 'the north', Townsville, Cairns - I don't know - but the locals will know.

None of the options looks very encouraging - but the easiest to investigate is re-galvanising as he can then use the existing gypsy. Unless he finds a nearer galvaniser (who knows how to gal chain (and that's another issue) his nearest galvaniser is in Bundaberg. The Bundaberg galvaniser is usually the go to galvaniser for chain. Many other galvanisers will not gal chain and will not a have either a shaker or spinner (to remove the excess zinc) and he may then end up with a rode in one solid lump or with uneven layers of zinc which will not fit his gypsy. One other option is to sail back south to Bundaberg but he actually wants to go, is going, the other way with a focus on sailing to Indonesia. It maybe that his visa or cruising permit is restrictive - but it might be possible to have them extended (and is an option would be worth investigating). Sailing north now opens up the dangers of cyclone season.....

You can regalvanise grade 40 as many times as you like. It is a normalised (= annealed, almost) steel with some alloy elements but not heat treated. Galvanising temperatures will have no effect on its strength.

You can re-galvanise G70 chain as many times as you like also as the chain had already been retempered (by galvanising) when it was originally made and regalvanising simply repeats the same process. I confirmed this by regalvanising a length of G70 and my results agree with results produced by Peerless themselves - who say the same thing. I'm not suggesting you can do this 10 times - but I don't think the chain would last the long anyway.

If you look at a new windlass then a further option is to down size the chain as 3/8th" might be oversized (based on the historic desire to have excessive catenary). Buying smaller chain, 8mm, will be cheaper and will offset some of the other costs. You might then need a decent snubber - but that is cheap. My guess is you want to minimise costs - but have a look at the downsizing option. 8mm windlass can be cheaper than 10mm windlass. But we don't know the size of your yacht nor windlass motor - again speak to Maxwell and have a look at what Whitworths (chandler) offer.

When we down sized, from 8mm to 6mm, we bought a new windlass (from Maxwell) but stuck with the original motor size (as the yacht size remains fixed and we all use the motor to pull the yacht toward the anchor). So we effectively have a windlass designed for 8mm chain but with a 6mm gypsy. But we did need a new windlass. Installing a new gypsy is something you can easily do your self though you might need to fill some of the old holes as the 2 fixing systems might (will) be different - but that's hardly difficult. The wiring etc is all the same.

Jonathan

 

[vyv_cox]

You can re-galvanise G70 chain as many times as you like also as the chain had already been retempered (by galvanising) when it was originally made and regalvanising simply repeats the same process. I confirmed this by regalvanising a length of G70 and my results agree with results produced by Peerless themselves - who say the same thing. I'm not suggesting you can do this 10 times - but I don't think the chain would last the long anyway.

Jonathan

The quoted reason not to regalvanise G70 is not temper temperature but hydrogen embrittlement due to acid pickling for previous zinc removal.

My own view, and we have discussed this in emails, is that G70 is nowhere near strong enough for hydrogen embrittlement to be a factor. Do you know if the Peerless trials included tensile testing after regalvanising?

 

[Neeves]

The quoted reason not to regalvanise G70 is not temper temperature but hydrogen embrittlement due to acid pickling for previous zinc removal.

My own view, and we have discussed this in emails, is that G70 is nowhere near strong enough for hydrogen embrittlement to be a factor. Do you know if the Peerless trials included tensile testing after regalvanising?

Yes.

We did this independently and both not knowing the other was doing it. I had actually tested re-galvanised Peerless (ACCO) chain for tensile strength and then in unrelated email correspondence they actually mentioned it and the measure for both of us was degeneration of tensile strength. As long as the 'new' tempering is the same as (as in galvanising) or lower than the previous tempering - the strength will not be impacted.

I had minimised fears and mention of HE but if there is any concern the answer is grit blasting and then immediately galvanise - ideally with grit blasting being done by the galvaniser. But Peerless G70, as you know, is a G70 chain that has been galvanised and the re-tempering by galvanising reduces the strength of the chain and it 'ultimately' becomes a G55 chain. But being a G70 chain originally it is marked as such (hence the name). There is no slight of hand - it is sold as 'Galvanised G70' - but its outside normal conventional 'labelling'. Its a common fudge - G120 lifting chain is achieved by using G100 chain but with a bigger link size (say 10mm + 10%) - and this is quite accepted in the lifting industry. Gunnebo make a gal G80, based on a G120 stock (+10%), for the aquaculture industry and I assume they grit blast.

This raises a question about the Italian G70 chain which I suspect is based on a G100 feedstock. The G100 will be at risk of HE but its a known issue and I assume they grit blast, rather than pickle with acid. I've been using the Armorgalv process (Sheradizing or Thermal Diffusion Galvanising) and a G80 or G100 feedstock and the process incorporates grit blasting as part of the process (and no acid). HE is a very real issue and widely recognised (bridges in California and Melbourne have suffered) - TDG is a defined process for the studs that hold up wind farm towers (about 2m long and 100mm diameter) - and presumably depends on tower size - using 100 studs for each tower.

Jonathan

 

[Billyo]

As an update, im going to regalvanize. Quoted by a local company 3.5aud/kg to strip and recoat. Very expensive but a quater of the price of other options.....

Fingers crossed they do a good job!