Reefing the main down wind

[geem]

There has been discussion on this forum previously, about reefing downwind. Something we always do.
I found this on Utube, and it explains nicely the way to do it from the cockpit on a modern boat. Hope this might help others try it out

 

[yotter]

Good video, however he was on a reach in a moderate wind and not downwind. If downwind in a strong breeze, I find the main problem is that the sail is hard up against the spreaders and rigging, not an issue on a reach though.

 

[jlavery]

Afraid that's not "downwind" but on a close reach, with the main clear of the rig. He's doing it in what looks like pretty benign conditions (did he mention 15kts?).

Similar to what we do - except we don't have tack reef lines.

His point that you don't have to go head to wind is very valid, and the use of tack lines does mean that it's easier to bring the sail down without necessarily having to have the sail completely flogging. Adding tack lines would be a major modification which I don't think is justified on our boat.

It's still necessary to be close enough to the wind that the main is not against the spreaders, in my experience. The drag of the main against the spreaders and rig can be very large, and you end up putting a lot of load on the tack line and potentially damaging the sail.

 

[Daydream believer]

Valid points made in posts above . He is not down wind & one can see that his mainsail is not full of wind but is on the verge of flogging. Downwind the sail catching on the lazyjacks is never the issue but the battens bent round the shrouds would be. Being on a reach means a good chance that he is broadside to the odd breaking wave. That is not the angle for such manoeuvres

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Valid points made in posts above . He is not down wind & one can see that his mainsail is not full of wind but is on the verge of flogging. Downwind the sail catching on the lazyjacks is never the issue but the battens bent round the shrouds would be. Being on a reach means a good chance that he is broadside to the odd breaking wave. That is not the angle for such manoeuvres

No, you’d definitely want to luff up on our boat, I daresay same for you. But as it’s a less than 2 minute job, and the boat is usually faster and easier to deal with after, you get the time back once it’s done.

 

[jlavery]

Valid points made in posts above . He is not down wind & one can see that his mainsail is not full of wind but is on the verge of flogging. Downwind the sail catching on the lazyjacks is never the issue but the battens bent round the shrouds would be. Being on a reach means a good chance that he is broadside to the odd breaking wave. That is not the angle for such manoeuvres

Good point of being on a reach, and waves.

We luff up onto a close reach or close hauled (having first reefed furling headsail to appropriate size for wind strength - assuming wind has increased since setting sails). Then the boat sails steadily either on autohelm or with helmsperson able to help one-handed with halyard while I nip to the mast to sort out the front reef hooks. If reefing early, really not hard and as @Chiara’s slave says, it's a quick job.

 

[Jon magowan]

I haven’t tried it, but just wondering.
What would happen if you pulled the boom in as close to the centre as possible to offload the sail before reefing?
Is this a non starter ?

 

[jlavery]

I haven’t tried it, but just wondering.
What would happen if you pulled the boom in as close to the centre as possible to offload the sail before reefing?
Is this a non starter ?

I've tried this.

You need to be going dead downwind or on a very broad reach. However, there's then too much load on the slides and luff and the sail won't drop easily, because you've got the main strapped in. As soon as you ease it, the top of the sail 'opens' and starts rubbing on the mast/spreaders/rig.

If the above problems don't manifest, you still need to really concentrate on steering to keep the boat sailing deep enough to stop the main loading up. A skilled helmsperson can do it, but all it takes is one wave to catch the stern and loads increase.

So, in a nutshell - generally doesn't work.

 

[jlavery]

I've tried this.

You need to be going dead downwind or on a very broad reach. However, there's then too much load on the slides and luff and the sail won't drop easily, because you've got the main strapped in. As soon as you ease it, the top of the sail 'opens' and starts rubbing on the mast/spreaders/rig.

If the above problems don't manifest, you still need to really concentrate on steering to keep the boat sailing deep enough to stop the main loading up. A skilled helmsperson can do it, but all it takes is one wave to catch the stern and loads increase.

So, in a nutshell - generally doesn't work.

I'm going to contradict myself now (or clarify).

Having said all that, it can be possible, depending on your rig and conditions. I did say generally above.

In moderate winds and with very low-friction mast slides/cars, it can be a viable technique - so worth trying, it may work on your boat. I've found it not to work on boats I've been sailing, and especially in stronger winds.

Of course one advantage of doing it this way is that the apparent wind is reduced.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I haven’t tried it, but just wondering.
What would happen if you pulled the boom in as close to the centre as possible to offload the sail before reefing?
Is this a non starter ?

This is the first part of a controlled gybe, which I use to reef my roller furling main. Works all the time.

I pull the main in enough to bring it off the rig, vang is used to flatten the sail ... then press the button to furl the main while feeding the outhaul out. Once I'm happy with the sail size, I adjust the foot and leech and let the mainsheet out again and carry on .... the genny is also a button press to furl/unfurl.

I use the boat behaviour in the gusts to determine the exact sail size needed and adjust genny/main size to find the sweet spot where the rudder lightens up and she sails herself. On my last boat it took a few seasons to learn the relative sizes needed for nice balance, but it eventually became second nature. Still learning with the new boat.

If the wind is really blowing, I'll even use engine assist to help keep the apparent wind as low as possible, but will probably be sent to the forum naughty step for that .

EDIT: I'll probably be sent there anyway for my new-fangled roller furling main.

 

[jlavery]

This is the first part of a controlled gybe, which I use to reef my roller furling main. Works all the time.

I pull the main in enough to bring it off the rig, vang is used to flatten the sail ... then press the button to furl the main while feeding the outhaul out. Once I'm happy with the sail size, I adjust the foot and leech and let the mainsheet out again and carry on .... the genny is also a button press to furl/unfurl.

I use the boat behaviour in the gusts to determine the exact sail size needed and adjust genny/main size to find the sweet spot where the rudder lightens up and she sails herself. On my last boat it took a few seasons to learn the relative sizes needed for nice balance, but it eventually became second nature. Still learning with the new boat.

If the wind is really blowing, I'll even use engine assist to help keep the apparent wind as low as possible, but will probably be sent to the forum naughty step for that .

EDIT: I'll probably be sent there anyway for my new-fangled roller furling main.

That all sounds like a great technique, with a mast-furling main. I like the idea of using the engine - important to 'think out of the box' to improve control and reduce apparent.

 

[geem]

Good video, however he was on a reach in a moderate wind and not downwind. If downwind in a strong breeze, I find the main problem is that the sail is hard up against the spreaders and rigging, not an issue on a reach though.

Valid points made in posts above . He is not down wind & one can see that his mainsail is not full of wind but is on the verge of flogging. Downwind the sail catching on the lazyjacks is never the issue but the battens bent round the shrouds would be. Being on a reach means a good chance that he is broadside to the odd breaking wave. That is not the angle for such manoeuvres

We do it in a similar manner to the video but we reef at the mast. If going dead down wind we sheet the main in to about 45° with a preventer on. It helps having a good autopilot and a boat with good directional stability. Bringing the boom away from the spreaders stops the mainsail being hard again the spreaders as you reef. We never go head to wind to reef. We use this technique all the time. It really comes into its own in winds above 30kts and big seas. I wouldn't want to turn into 3 or 4 metre seas to put the third reef in. If the seas are big, you can come more around to a broad reach whilst you reef to reduce the risk of a waves kicking the stern around and causing a gybe.

 

[jlavery]

We do it in a similar manner to the video but we reef at the mast. If going dead down wind we sheet the main in to about 45° with a preventer on. It helps having a good autopilot and a boat with good directional stability. Bringing the boom away from the spreaders stops the mainsail being hard again the spreaders as you reef. We never go head to wind to reef. We use this technique all the time. It really comes into its own in winds above 30kts and big seas. I wouldn't want to turn into 3 or 4 metre seas to put the third reef in. If the seas are big, you can come more around to a broad reach whilst you reef to reduce the risk of a waves kicking the stern around and causing a gybe.

That's really interesting. A lot of detail and preparation - especially the preventer.

I'll have to try it on Arpeggio (not sure about her directional stability - narrow stern).

And for the 3rd (or even 2nd) reef, my observations regarding sail dragging on spreaders etc. may not hold. Less sail up, and so less to twist off.

The message (as always) is to try it! There's hardly ever only one answer. Depends on boat, experience on board and conditions.

 

[Zing]

I do it on various points of sail. On a reach it works best to sheet out to luff the sail and depower. Further downwind it’s the opposite, to sheet in to depower and avoid the spreaders. I’ve got a downhaul line on the luff led to a mast winch, which helps and allows more power in the sail than otherwise would be required. Good to maintain control and minimise gybe risks. A ball bearing mast track helps too. All lines are together and again that makes it easier - at the mast in my case.

 

[Daydream believer]

I haven’t tried it, but just wondering.
What would happen if you pulled the boom in as close to the centre as possible to offload the sail before reefing?
Is this a non starter ?

If you were running down wind you might start gybing the main from side to side & the boat would certainly corkscrew

 

[geem]

If you were running down wind you might start gybing the main from side to side & the boat would certainly corkscrew

You simply turn onto a broad reach instead of DDW. Problem solved

 

[Daydream believer]

I start the engine. head 20 degrees off the wind, to stop the boom hitting my head. I pick the best angle to suit the waves. reef then carry on. Very rarely have to reef the jib. So main only.

 

[geem]

I start the engine. head 20 degrees off the wind, to stop the boom hitting my head. I pick the best angle to suit the waves. reef then carry on. Very rarely have to reef the jib. So main only.

That's fine when the weather in benign but very challenging to do when it's rough. Just turning through the wind in big seas would be dangerous.
If you were in a situation where you had lost the engine, maybe a rope around the prop or discarded fishing gear, what then?

 

[Fr J Hackett]

If you were running down wind you might start gybing the main from side to side & the boat would certainly corkscrew

I have reefed the main in exactly that manner in large seas with over 40 knots true and mid 30s apparent by centring and sheeting in the boom as hard as possible. With a decent set of cars and intermediates on a fully battened main and single line reefing with decent blocks rather than just cringles it was no problem and is the reason that I am wary about in mast and in boom reefing although the latter not so much.

 

[Daydream believer]

That's fine when the weather in benign but very challenging to do when it's rough. Just turning through the wind in big seas would be dangerous.
If you were in a situation where you had lost the engine, maybe a rope around the prop or discarded fishing gear, what then?

There are always emergencies & one learns to deal with them. I have had my fair share of engine & prop issues.

In the past I have sheeted the jib in hard & set the aeries to keep it feathering into the wind. It does actually work quite well because my boat sails well to windward on its ST jib in fairly difficult North sea & Channel seas up to F8. Proper F9 is rare in summer sailing for me.
You say that turning into seas can be dangerous, but I have avoided gybing in 4 m seas by chicken gybing. I can do this very quickly between waves because my boat spins very quickly. A tub like yours would probably not do that, so your situation would be different. Plus seas in blue water will be different. Higher but, presumably, further apart.
But we can all quote tales of big seas - bit like fishermen & the biggest catch. Meaningless really.