Reefing Ketchs

[BrendanChandler]

Is there agreement on the order to reef sails on a ketch as weather strengthens?

Brendan

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[Mirelle]

Depends, to some extent, on the boat...

In general, the "idea" is to bring the sailplan closer to the centre of the vessel.

The theory of this is twofold - firstly she will handle more predictably and secondly as she pitches violently in heavy weather there is less risk of headsails and aftercanvas being alternately filled and blanketed.

Having said which, it can be easier said than done to achieve this.

Most ketches will sail under a headsail and the mizzen, but you may suddenly find that she refuses to come about, which can be highly embarrassing.

Dropping the mainsail for a temporary squall is probably fine but should be used just for that, not as a long term plan.

So, the answer to your question is that in theory (and this does depend on your boat!) the best plan is to reef the mainsail first, then change reduce headsails and drop the mizzen.

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[Nich39Nige]

Brendan,

I drop the main and use foresail and mizzen. I have found that my boat behaves very well with this and have no problems coming about. As weather gets worse t's a storm jib on my inner forestay and a tri on the main. Mizzen and fore are good up to top end of force 9.

Nigel

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[Robin]

Re: Depends, to some extent, on the boat...

On our old W33/Discus the routine was:-

1. Drop the mizzen (1st reef, always) 15kts +/- apparent
2. Rolls around genoa 20kts +/- apparent
3. Reef Main 25kts +/- apparent
4. Reef main 2 (plus more rolls) 30kts apparent

The alternative was mizzen & jib, surprisingly effective and she would tack, for short trips this would cut in as step 3 above. In the last 2 years of ownership and approximately 4,000mls, the main was reefed just once. Mizzen & jib was used often and was very effective and it was actually quicker downwind in all wind strengths, although it took only 10 years ownership to discover that!

This was a W33 though, smallish mizzen and the mast is in the same position (though shorter) than the W33 sloop.

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[Mudplugger]

Re: Depends, to some extent, on the boat...

Sorry Robin, always found that effective heavy weather set=up on Maid, was Mizzen & Working Jib, So main was reeefed first, 1, 2, 3. Away....Then Storm Jib & Mizzen... but not often as I'm a total coward!.....regards \Tony W.

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[MainlySteam]

Re: Depends, to some extent, on the boat...

Very interesting about the mizzen and jib faster down wind.

Some 8 years ago we sailed in company with some overseas friends visiting in their yawl and on one very light day when sailing downwind they used only their mizzen and genoa and I recall wondering about that at the time.

Your post brought it back to mind, I have checked a photo of the day I recalled just to make sure that my memory was correct, and your post has put my mind at rest on why they did so (it had obviously been festering away in there for 8 years /forums/images/icons/crazy.gif).

John

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[castaway]

With a Halberdier the accepted method is to dump the mizzen as soon as you stop the engine! For some reason the mizzen has a huge effect on the weather helm and is always a bit of a relief to get rid of.

Nick

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.yachtsite.co.uk/fairweather>http://www.yachtsite.co.uk/fairweather</A>

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[Robin]

Re: Depends, to some extent, on the boat...

I think we agreed! The choice of reefing the main or dropping it altogether and raising the mizzen depended on how far we were going, wind direction and expected weather (improving or worsening). If we were going upwind for any real distance we would favour the reefed main/jib, if downwind or upwind for short distance then probably we would use the mizzen/jib combination.

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[Robin]

Re: Depends, to some extent, on the boat...

I think I had suspected it for some time but couldn't bring myself to drop the main especially in light winds! The point was made for us when a similar boat rigged with just the genoa plus mizzen was slowly catching us from astern despite my best efforts, I even looked for the exhaust smoke with binoculars, sad or what? After they had passed I dropped our main and we even caught them up again!

From memory the genoa on the W33 was almost double the size of the mainsail so I believe what happens is that although the genoa appears to be full and pulling, there is enough wind interference from the main to take away some of the force, yet the area of the main is not enough to compensate for this loss. The mizzen is much smaller than the main (about 30%) and much farther back plus it can be goosewinged easily even by the lee, we had the sheeting arranged on a snapshackle so could sheet down to an aft quarter cleat giving a flatter more squared off mizzen too. Whatever the reasons it worked in practice as well as being a very relaxed rig to sail with, no collapsing, banging genoa, no unintentional gybes.

The technique has spilled over on our current boat, which is a masthead sloop with a big main and big genoa. We often take the lazy option of genoa only with the wind behind (+/- 45 degs say) and seem to go just as fast as most others of a similar size and faster than some slightly smaller ones who are using spinnakers, very satisfying! Of course we could fly the assymetric, even set it on the pole a la spi, but SWMBO will only allow this if it will stay up for several hours without attention and certainly without the need to gybe! It is probably a sign of age when cunning replaces brute force.

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[LadyInBed]

I think Mirelle is correct when he says, “this does depend on your boat”. The combination of type of keel, height of masts, and how far forward / aft the masts are stepped make for a wide range of characteristics. A Cromarty with a long keel and the masts stepped quite far forward (about 1/4 and 2/3) has got to be a whole different kettle of fish to my bilge keel Countess, with the main mast stepped about 1/3 forward and the mizzen stepped quite far aft (3/4).

When the wind picks up, what works for me is to reef fore and main, then get rid of the main completely. With light winds from the rear, I get rid of the main because it interferes with the genoa, and mizzen because I have a genica that I fly from the mizzen mast.

There doesn’t seem to be any books that deal specifically with ketches, if there is a mention it’s more an afterthought.


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[gunnarsilins]

On my Moody 42 the sequence is:
<F 5 Everything hoisted.
F 5 drop the main, continue with full genua
F 6 put in some rolls in genua
F 7 more rolls in genua, or roll it away entirely and use small jib on inner forestay
F 7-8 drop mizzen, reef main, and use small jib on inner forestay

I never had problems with tacking when using mizzen and genua or jib only, and we normally use this setup between F 5 and F8.


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[johna]

Re: Depends, to some extent, on the boat...

Re discussion on downwind sailing and the use of foresail and mizzen no one has mentioned a mizzen staysail. I have recently re-cut a foresail to give me a staysail and will experiment this year before spending more money. Any others with experience of mizzen staysails?

John

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[Chris_Robb]

Re: Depends, to some extent, on the boat...

Totally agree. - Only 2 reef points were supplied on the main - I wanted to put a third in - the sailmaker said that if Van de Stadt had intented it to have 3, it would have been done! - that was when I learned that you should drop the main and use initially working jib and mizzen, then strom jib and mizzen. Only used the latter once, before changing to a roller foresail - which was brilliant for cruising - but totally crap as a replacement for a storm jib! Needed it once last year - do ended up motor sailing ofr the duration of and 8-9 eaterly.

Chris



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[BrendanChandler]

Re: Depends, to some extent, on the boat...

Thanks for the info.

Like you, I also have a masthead sloop and frequently run using the genoa only, often reefed. On one occassion we ran from Scillies to Shotley under reefed genoa.

Thanks to everybody for sharing their experience

Brendan

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[gunnarsilins]

Mizzen stay sail/Johna

You are doing exactly the same as me!
I beleive that the shape of a mizzen stay sail is not of any major importance, it will not be used to windward anyway. So I hope I can stick to my old jib.
So lets share our expeiences at the end of season!

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[mikesharp]

Re: Depends, to some extent, on the boat...

We have a 100 square metre converted to a ketch and almost a yawl (another 6 inches). With a very long boom we have quite a gap between mainmast and mizzenmast and use a mizzen staysail in light to moderate winds from beam to broad reach but not upwind. A beautiful sail, can be difficult to set, gives a useful extra 1 1/2 knots and gets some very strange looks from fellow yachties who think we have been mated with an arab dhow.
We also use the working jib and mizzen combination as part of the reefing process and find it gives a good balance, sailing flat and easier to remove weather helm which relieves the helmsman on the longer trips.

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[LadyInBed]

Re: mizzen staysail

Yes they have, I did! OK it was in a roundabout way.

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[Goldie]

Re: Mizzen Staysail

Wonderful sail. We fly it with the wind 60 degrees off the bow around to 30 degrees off the stern. If the wind is further aft than that, drop the mizzen and use the mizzen boom to pole out the staysail. We're still experimenting to see how much we gain by doing that, but we think we gain a little. The sail is dead easy to handle - if you want to drop it in a hurry, let the halyard go and collect the sail in the cockpit. Wouldn't be without it, but always surprised how few ketches and yawls use one.

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[ponapay]

Mizzen staysail - the best

reason for ketch rig.

I use mine, and cruising chute, whenever possible. Some say they are a pain in the neck but if you are on a steady course and are not likely to get sudden wind shifts they are great.

Mine tacks to the windward shroud base on a short tack lead and the clew is attached to the end of the mizzen boom. This means that tacking and gybing are not possible without damage, though I often drop the main in this configuration as it can blank the chute. I have held the mizzen staysail full to a beam reach, but it is not advised.

It is always a delight to watch other, newer, boats being overhauled by an old stager.

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