Tucepi
Member
Its getting closer to Dec 2006. what do you guess will happen. Will our boat values begin to drop, will we end up having to pay forecourt pump prices for diesel.
What do you speculate?
What do you speculate?
Red Diesel
- Thread starter Tucepi
- Start date
omega2
Active member
Keep harping on about it and it will happen, maybe today will see a change in the powers that be. God Willing
Whitelighter
Active member
Two things are likely to happen.
1) Diesel boats will fall into line with the price of their petrol counterparts - though a modern diesel engine is still more efficient than a petrol (see Sealine S29 at 6GPH versus MPI V8 at about 9.5GPH) so should still command a small premium.
2) Manufacturers will be forced to stop charging over inflated money for diesel boats. When you buy a diesel car, it doesnt cost £13-15k more than the petrol equivilent, so why should it in a boat. The engine technology is basically the same. I accept that marine diesels take a bit more engineering, but surely this is manufacturers taking the P**s for far too long.
1) Diesel boats will fall into line with the price of their petrol counterparts - though a modern diesel engine is still more efficient than a petrol (see Sealine S29 at 6GPH versus MPI V8 at about 9.5GPH) so should still command a small premium.
2) Manufacturers will be forced to stop charging over inflated money for diesel boats. When you buy a diesel car, it doesnt cost £13-15k more than the petrol equivilent, so why should it in a boat. The engine technology is basically the same. I accept that marine diesels take a bit more engineering, but surely this is manufacturers taking the P**s for far too long.
mainshiptom
Active member
Some diesel boats (slow ones) do not consume much diesel , So I can not see why thier value would change?
My boat consumes around the 2 gph even at top speed (10 Knots)
Maybe the fast boats will become for the rich only? Which is fine by me since I am not in a rush and not rich either.
Tom
My boat consumes around the 2 gph even at top speed (10 Knots)
Maybe the fast boats will become for the rich only? Which is fine by me since I am not in a rush and not rich either.
Tom
Whitelighter
Active member
Thats a fair point, but if I potter around at 6 or 7 knots I only burn 3GPH - yet my petrol boat cost a whopping £13k less than the diesel alternative. If petrol and diesel cost the same at the pump, and the boats burn about the same fuel, would you still pay the extra money? I think probably not........
gjgm
Active member
well, I d guess we will know before the present end date of the concession, and i d also guess that there wont be a sudden change in boat prices. If you own diesel powered boat, you might worry its gone down in value, but human nature is unlikely to provoke anyone to voluntarily knock 10-20-30pct of the asking price. Maybe over a 6-12 month period, a bit like car prices when all that import scam was broken.
Just as big a risk it seems to me is that boats being luxury goods are going to be susceptible to a downturn in the economy. A few posts recently on here by folk with their own businesses saying it was terrible;high street names reporting lousy figures;retail sales showing worst quarter in 10 years or whatever. Large number of fixed price mortgages are now rolling at much higher rates. Boat price now, compared to mid 2007? Could be a bit scary-though perhaps the £400-500k+ market might not be so effected unless recession hits (and no one is suggesting that).
But,re diesel, it must heavily depend on the size of the boat. Cant think we ll be seeing many 40 ft petrols, but smaller single engined diesels must get hit hard, and twins up to a size where the sheer volume of fuel petrols burn make the efficiency of a diesel compensate for the extra cost.. 32 ft ish maybe? Because if you can buy a new boat(30ft) with petrols for £10-15k less than diesels, and theres only a marginal saving in fuel costs, thats alot of premium....
Cant see diesel engines coming down. There s not the economy of scale as for cars, on production ,or r+d. Do Volvo care whether you buya diesel or a petrol ? Wouldnt think so, and so far, thats pretty much the only two choices !
Just as big a risk it seems to me is that boats being luxury goods are going to be susceptible to a downturn in the economy. A few posts recently on here by folk with their own businesses saying it was terrible;high street names reporting lousy figures;retail sales showing worst quarter in 10 years or whatever. Large number of fixed price mortgages are now rolling at much higher rates. Boat price now, compared to mid 2007? Could be a bit scary-though perhaps the £400-500k+ market might not be so effected unless recession hits (and no one is suggesting that).
But,re diesel, it must heavily depend on the size of the boat. Cant think we ll be seeing many 40 ft petrols, but smaller single engined diesels must get hit hard, and twins up to a size where the sheer volume of fuel petrols burn make the efficiency of a diesel compensate for the extra cost.. 32 ft ish maybe? Because if you can buy a new boat(30ft) with petrols for £10-15k less than diesels, and theres only a marginal saving in fuel costs, thats alot of premium....
Cant see diesel engines coming down. There s not the economy of scale as for cars, on production ,or r+d. Do Volvo care whether you buya diesel or a petrol ? Wouldnt think so, and so far, thats pretty much the only two choices !
D
Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
I think where there is the petrol equivalent in the range the price gap at least on the used market should narrow but I cant see that the values of boats which are offered with diesel engines only will suffer much if at all
I do agree with you that the extra cost for a new diesel engined boat is far too high compared to petrol. I think to some extent the US builders have an excuse. They produce huge numbers of petrol engined boats for their own market and then they have to engineer a handful of diesel boats for the UK/Euro markets so they lose some economy of scale. But I think the UK builders are just taking the piss because their boats are engineered for diesel from the start so the only difference can be the extra cost of the engine/drive, a bit more fuel pipework and maybe stronger engine bearers, maybe £5k tops. I think what they do is price the petrol version as a bit of a loss leader knowing that most punters will pay thru the nose for diesel. As you say, its difficult to see how this differential can be maintained when/if red diesel goes
I do agree with you that the extra cost for a new diesel engined boat is far too high compared to petrol. I think to some extent the US builders have an excuse. They produce huge numbers of petrol engined boats for their own market and then they have to engineer a handful of diesel boats for the UK/Euro markets so they lose some economy of scale. But I think the UK builders are just taking the piss because their boats are engineered for diesel from the start so the only difference can be the extra cost of the engine/drive, a bit more fuel pipework and maybe stronger engine bearers, maybe £5k tops. I think what they do is price the petrol version as a bit of a loss leader knowing that most punters will pay thru the nose for diesel. As you say, its difficult to see how this differential can be maintained when/if red diesel goes
kimhollamby
Active member
Current state of play
BMF and RYA have just briefed the civil servants who are preparing the background for ministers to consider whether to press for further derogation or not.
Feedback seemed to indicate the case for an extension to the derogation understood but clearly the civil servants ultimately have no say.
Various comments from MPs in the press last few weeks seem to indicate most not still fully aware of the role of red diesel outside of the farming and fishing communities. That may yet be a good thing...
BMF and RYA have just briefed the civil servants who are preparing the background for ministers to consider whether to press for further derogation or not.
Feedback seemed to indicate the case for an extension to the derogation understood but clearly the civil servants ultimately have no say.
Various comments from MPs in the press last few weeks seem to indicate most not still fully aware of the role of red diesel outside of the farming and fishing communities. That may yet be a good thing...
oldgit
Well-known member
Suspect that one or two other items will be cut from any of our forumees budgets afore the boat gets looked at.
Most folks on here are fairly passionate about boats and boating.While you may get a few craft appearing on the market from less comitted boaters i doubt any dramatic drop in prices.Most diesel users would rather die than go back to using any engine that ran on lighter fuel. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Most folks on here are fairly passionate about boats and boating.While you may get a few craft appearing on the market from less comitted boaters i doubt any dramatic drop in prices.Most diesel users would rather die than go back to using any engine that ran on lighter fuel. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
BrendanS
Well-known member
[ QUOTE ]
Most diesel users would rather die than go back to using any engine that ran on lighter fuel.
[/ QUOTE ]
Lets face it. Most of em are so old they'll die before derogation comes in at end of 2006 anyway! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Most diesel users would rather die than go back to using any engine that ran on lighter fuel.
[/ QUOTE ]
Lets face it. Most of em are so old they'll die before derogation comes in at end of 2006 anyway! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
oldgit
Well-known member
Know look here you young whipper snapp.....................cough choke splutter wheres me pills arrghhhhhh...............Thud. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
SteveE
New member
Am i being thick, or if red comes in line with std european rates then so must road deisel, and petrol, so by default we will be better off, because we spend more on the latter than the former?
BrendanS
Well-known member
Derogation brings red diesel in line with Europe. Nothing to do with other prices of diesel and petrol for road use I'm afraid
blueglass
New member
Agree entirely with your comments on size of boat making a big difference. Smaller boats may suffer a downturn in price of diesel options but anything bigger than say 32 ft i reckon will remain stable. Apart from anything else most 4o footers don't have a petrol equivalent anyway (at least in UK) Also most buyers will still want the longevity/reliabilty/safety advantages of diesel. Even if petrol and diesel are the same price these bigger boats will also still have a big mpg cost advantage running on diesel.