Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

[Blue Sunray]

The point i am making is the dye marker we use in our red diesel is the same as the red diesel marker in europe, so how would Mr Customs man know you havent illegally purchased/aquired the fuel in the EU ? unless you fill out a 29 page carnet and declare a guesstimate as to what you have in your tanks at the point of entry ?

:encouragement:

He wouldn't, neither would he (have reason to) care, you have marker in your tank, you're in his jurisdiction. - "Here's your fine old boy, are you paying cash or credit card?"

It's not particularly complex though some seem to still have comprehension difficulties.

Carnets are a red herring here (if you'll excuse the pun) they are avoid paying duties on goods that are to be re-exported - my experience of them was mostly for laptops that our pax were carrying on trips abroad. They have no relevance to the absolute offence of having marked fuel in your tank.

 

[Blue Sunray]

Off Topic but, what about import duty and VAT on equipment and personal goods being taken out to the boat based in EU?

That is where a carnet might be applicable.

 

[lw395]

No experience of carnets whatsoever. Offence being the marker, yes previously made the same point myself :encouragement:

The point i am making is the dye marker we use in our red diesel is the same as the red diesel marker in europe, so how would Mr Customs man know you havent illegally purchased/aquired the fuel in the EU ? unless you fill out a 29 page carnet and declare a guesstimate as to what you have in your tanks at the point of entry ?

At present we are in the EU.
The current arrangement for yachts to use red diesel in the UK is toast.
When we leave the EU, I expect that not to change, it will be part of the customs and excise agreement and/or part of regional harmonisation of regulations.
I see no great imperative for the UK government to do anything but require us to use only white diesel in yachts.

 

[Blue Sunray]

At present we are in the EU.
The current arrangement for yachts to use red diesel in the UK is toast.
When we leave the EU, I expect that not to change, it will be part of the customs and excise agreement and/or part of regional harmonisation of regulations.
I see no great imperative for the UK government to do anything but require us to use only white diesel in yachts.

:encouragement:

 

[NormanS]

At present we are in the EU.
The current arrangement for yachts to use red diesel in the UK is toast.
When we leave the EU, I expect that not to change, it will be part of the customs and excise agreement and/or part of regional harmonisation of regulations.
I see no great imperative for the UK government to do anything but require us to use only white diesel in yachts.

Some of us (away from dahn sarf) simply do not have access to anything other than red diesel.

 

[Old Harry]

From what i remember of the case of the American MOBO dipped in Germany and fined, they were a large MOBO and had a Fuel Log with receipts showing dates, times, location and quantities of fuel taken on. It made no difference to the Official dipping the tank and fining them

As a matter of interest, was this taken to a higher level by the vessel owner. Any follow up

 

[Blue Sunray]

Some of us (away from dahn sarf) simply do not have access to anything other than red diesel.

I'm not sure that many in the south do either at the moment, that would not be, however, of interest to a Belgian customs officer with a pen and a book of tickets.

 

[maby]

I'm not sure that many in the south do either at the moment, that would not be, however, of interest to a Belgian customs officer with a pen and a book of tickets.

Unmarked diesel is very difficult to find down here too - but, unlike those of you "up norf", most of us get our fuel at marina fuel berths which serve primarily the leisure community, so I think it is safe to assume that the supplies will switch to unmarked soon after any new legislation comes in.

 

[Minchsailor]

Unmarked diesel is very difficult to find down here too - but, unlike those of you "up norf", most of us get our fuel at marina fuel berths which serve primarily the leisure community, so I think it is safe to assume that the supplies will switch to unmarked soon after any new legislation comes in.

I think down south they will, but @NormanS has a point. In our part of the world fuel pumps are at council owned facilities, operated by the council. I simply can't see a cash strapped council (Highland Council or Comhairle nan Eilean Siar) finding the required £££££s to put in a white diesel pump for the comparatively modest requirements of yachties.

To give some idea of the disparity in usage: I have seen a large fishing vessel take on 50,000 litres; from the same pump I take 90 litres.

 

[Champagne Murphy]

Some of us (away from dahn sarf) simply do not have access to anything other than red diesel.

Looks like you will have soon. Here’s the text of an email I received recently;


Thank you for your enquiry.

We presently serve three fuels for leisure vessels at Ramsgate from our own fuel barge; these are FAME free red marine gas oil, white diesel (not FAME free) and unleaded petrol.

We're hoping that in line with the recent ruling, the industry will soon be in a position to be able to provide FAME free white diesel.
Kind regards



Robert Brown.



Harbour Master & Marine Operations Manager

Thanet District Council

Port of Ramsgate

 

[dunedin]

Some of us (away from dahn sarf) simply do not have access to anything other than red diesel.

But that is only because we still sell red diesel to yachts. Change the rules and the supplies will be put in place to match demand.
It isn't a problem buying white diesel all over the place in other countries, so why are we less capable of achieving this in the UK?
And not as if the commercial fishing fleets are as big as they used to be.

 

[NormanS]

Looks like you will have soon. Here’s the text of an email I received recently;


Thank you for your enquiry.

We presently serve three fuels for leisure vessels at Ramsgate from our own fuel barge; these are FAME free red marine gas oil, white diesel (not FAME free) and unleaded petrol.

We're hoping that in line with the recent ruling, the industry will soon be in a position to be able to provide FAME free white diesel.
Kind regards



Robert Brown.



Harbour Master & Marine Operations Manager

Thanet District Council

Port of Ramsgate

According to my grasp of geography, it's a long way from the NW of Scotland to Ramsgate.

 

[NormanS]

But that is only because we still sell red diesel to yachts. Change the rules and the supplies will be put in place to match demand.
It isn't a problem buying white diesel all over the place in other countries, so why are we less capable of achieving this in the UK?
And not as if the commercial fishing fleets are as big as they used to be.

As already pointed out (with an example) by Minchsailor, the "demand" from yachts on the West Coast is tiny compared with that from commercial users. Think of fish farms, ferries, etc. I can't see the normal outlets installing the necessary equipment in order to supply small amounts to private yachts.

Funnily enough, and coincidentally with Minchsailor's recent post, last week I was getting a modest amount of fuel from my normal supplier, and the customer immediately before me had just taken 50,000 litres. These people only supply yachts as a favour.

 

[dunedin]

According to my grasp of geography, it's a long way from the NW of Scotland to Ramsgate.

Why don't you think that the yachting harbours around West of Scotland will start to stock white diesel for yachts if and when the government and RYA clarify the way forward post ruling? Lots of places where yachts are very common purchasers of diesel, which they will I am sure be happy to sell it.
Sail Scotland and RYA Scotland will I am sure promote its availability.

Have you sailed in other European countries which manage fine with this, even in remote communities? In recent yeasr have bought diesel in Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, France - as well as UK and Eire. Why are we less capable?

 

[Old Harry]

A tankful (100l) of Red lasts me about five years! I caught the bug last year and have no plans to catch it again.

Some interesting points on this YouTube talk.

Have you tries any of the biocides available, i historically use 300lts a year & that does include heating, i always dose up every top-up

 

[BelleSerene]

Unmarked diesel is very difficult to find down here too - but, unlike those of you "up norf", most of us get our fuel at marina fuel berths which serve primarily the leisure community, so I think it is safe to assume that the supplies will switch to unmarked soon after any new legislation comes in.

I don't see why new legislation would be necessary: HMRC can just change its practice of rebating. Indeed, it has already said it is looking at 'how and when the UK will adjust its practices'.

It would make sense for our government not to take any actual action until after Brexit. The CJEU judgment doesn't state a deadline, and member states are usually given a reasonable period to make adjustments to comply with the EU's directives and rulings of its Court of 'Justice'.

After we have left the EU, what needs to happen depends on whether we agree in our withdrawal to remain subject to EU rulings. If we don't, the thing can presumably be forgotten, of no more relevance to the sovereign UK than medieval Papal edicts. Indeed, it would be great to abandon the whole 60/40 complexity with it, reverting to the simpler system where leisure vessels, just as other ones, could use red diesel. The 60/40 fudge or compromise was only introduced to comply with the EU rule that leisure vessels should be excluded from benefiting from duty-free fuel for propulsion.

 

[wizard]

I don't see why new legislation would be necessary: HMRC can just change its practice of rebating. Indeed, it has already said it is looking at 'how and when the UK will adjust its practices'.

It would make sense for our government not to take any actual action until after Brexit. The CJEU judgment doesn't state a deadline, and member states are usually given a reasonable period to make adjustments to comply with the EU's directives and rulings of its Court of 'Justice'.

After we have left the EU, what needs to happen depends on whether we agree in our withdrawal to remain subject to EU rulings. If we don't, the thing can presumably be forgotten, of no more relevance to the sovereign UK than medieval Papal edicts. Indeed, it would be great to abandon the whole 60/40 complexity with it, reverting to the simpler system where leisure vessels, just as other ones, could use red diesel. The 60/40 fudge or compromise was only introduced to comply with the EU rule that leisure vessels should be excluded from benefiting from duty-free fuel for propulsion.

There will be no grace period as this has already gone on for years. Enough time that we should have sorted something out.
We haven’t!

So don’t hold your breath.

 

[chrishscorp]

At present we are in the EU.
The current arrangement for yachts to use red diesel in the UK is toast.
When we leave the EU, I expect that not to change, it will be part of the customs and excise agreement and/or part of regional harmonisation of regulations.
I see no great imperative for the UK government to do anything but require us to use only white diesel in yachts.

:encouragement:

 

[CCJ]

According to my grasp of geography, it's a long way from the NW of Scotland to Ramsgate.

Praise the Lord, Ramsgate is bad enough, but for some strange reason it has a Waitrose shop

 

[Champagne Murphy]

Praise the Lord, Ramsgate is bad enough, but for some strange reason it has a Waitrose shop

You only find an oasis in a desert.