Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

[Graham376]

Yes, of course any individual customs official can act out of spite, resentment or ignorance and charge or detain you anyway. But such extrajudicial behaviour is not the norm and doesn’t last in civilised countries.

In the UK, if one is caught with red diesel in a car tank there's a fine, they don't have to prove duty wasn't paid. Each State has its own rules which they are free to impose on any visiting boats and my bet is that in some of them, just having red diesel in the tank is an offence. Americans have been fined for having duty free fuel purchased in their own country in their tanks so, why should we be treated differently? Although painful for power boaters, filling up with white won't make a vast difference to most sail boat owners, we've been using white for the last 12 years or so.

 

[GTom]

In the UK, if one is caught with red diesel in a car tank there's a fine, they don't have to prove duty wasn't paid. Each State has its own rules which they are free to impose on any visiting boats and my bet is that in some of them, just having red diesel in the tank is an offence. Americans have been fined for having duty free fuel purchased in their own country in their tanks so, why should we be treated differently? Although painful for power boaters, filling up with white won't make a vast difference to most sail boat owners, we've been using white for the last 12 years or so.

Fining the American boat was a violation of the 1990 Istanbul Convention, I wonder how their legal actions succeeded...

 

[chrishscorp]

Fining the American boat was a violation of the 1990 Istanbul Convention, I wonder how their legal actions succeeded...

How is it a violation of the 1990 Istanbul Convention ?

 

[GTom]

How is it a violation of the 1990 Istanbul Convention ?

It says (full text HERE):

The fuel contained in the normal tanks of the means of transport temporarily admitted as
well as lubrication oils for the normal use of such means of transport shall be admitted
without payment of import duties and taxes and without application of import prohibitions or
restrictions.

Marked fuel is 100% legal to use in pleasure craft in the US.

 

[Blue Sunray]

It says (full text HERE):



Marked fuel is 100% legal to use in pleasure craft in the US.

However as has been repeatedly stated (though some others seem to have difficulty with getting their heads around the concept) they are not being charged with having avoided duty, import or otherwise, they are being fined for having marked fuel in the tanks. A nice distinction but a distinction none the less, so as you say it would be interesting to know how the case panned out.

 

[GTom]

However as has been repeatedly stated (though some others seem to have difficulty with getting their heads around the concept) they are not being charged with having avoided duty, import or otherwise, they are being fined for having marked fuel in the tanks. A nice distinction but a distinction none the less, so as you say it would be interesting to know how the case panned out.

What you import is the leftover dye that colors your white fuel even if you refuel in EU (UK, whatever) ports.

 

[maby]

It says (full text HERE):



Marked fuel is 100% legal to use in pleasure craft in the US.

But the US does not appear to be a signatory to the 1990 Istambul Convention. Interestingly, signatories include both the EU and each EU member individually, so Brexit should not affect our relationship with the remaining EU in this respect, at least.

 

[Seven Spades]

It says "The fuel contained in the normal tanks of the means of transport temporarily admitted as
well as lubrication oils for the normal use of such means of transport shall be admitted
without payment of import duties and taxes and without application of import prohibitions or
restrictions."



Marked fuel is 100% legal to use in pleasure craft in the US.

I think that this probably means that whilst we remain member of the EU it is an offence, but once we leave we should be protected by this convention. How it will pan out will become clear. My guesses that only the Germans and Belgiums will enforce it, everyone else will be glad of our business.

 

[GTom]

But the US does not appear to be a signatory to the 1990 Istambul Convention. Interestingly, signatories include both the EU and each EU member individually, so Brexit should not affect our relationship with the remaining EU in this respect, at least.

Valid point, just found the US hasn't signed it. Therefore, EU customs should provide a clear and realistic procedure, that visiting boats from a non-signatory countries should follow, instead of hopping on the boat and issue multi-thousand $ fines. Forcing boats to use white fuel outside of EU jurisdictions or full fuel system cleaning before entering EU waters is unrealistic.

BTW, same stands for the numerous Channel Islands based (or just registered?) boats, that may have dye residue in their systems.

 

[BelleSerene]

Check out article 54 of this: http://www.etaamb.be/fr/arrete-royal-du-28-juin-2015_n2015003213.html

Thank you! This does indeed deny the right to hold marked diesel, even if bought abroad, in Belgium. This is what I asked for more than once above. A couple of other posters' repeated insistence that the EU regulation (Directive 95/60/EC) or the related CJEU ruling against UK made it an offence merely to hold marked diesel missed the point. Thank you.

However, this Belgian law is in conflict with the international treaty [ http://ec.europa.eu/world/agreement...eralData.do?step=0&redirect=true&treatyId=533 ] that countries won't tax temporary imports from each other, specifically including fuel in a vessel's tanks. Belgium is a signatory to this, and FWIW the EU has ratified it.

That may leave the Belgians in a bit of a mess, with a law which if upheld breaks a treaty that the country had signed up to. Certainly, when an outside country complains about Belgium penalising its visiting sailors against its promise made in that treaty and not rescinded since, it's going to be on rock-solid ground - but granted, the local law may give xenophobic Belgian douaniers some comfort!

 

[chrishscorp]

What you import is the leftover dye that colors your white fuel even if you refuel in EU (UK, whatever) ports.

Thank you! This does indeed deny the right to hold marked diesel, even if bought abroad, in Belgium. This is what I asked for more than once above. A couple of other posters' repeated insistence that the EU regulation ([FONT=&]Directive 95/60/EC[/FONT]) or the related CJEU ruling against UK made it an offence merely to hold marked diesel missed the point. Thank you.

However, this Belgian law is in conflict with the international treaty [ http://ec.europa.eu/world/agreement...eralData.do?step=0&redirect=true&treatyId=533 ] that countries won't tax temporary imports from each other, specifically including fuel in a vessel's tanks. Belgium is a signatory to this, and FWIW the EU has ratified it.

That may leave the Belgians in a bit of a mess, with a law which if upheld breaks a treaty that the country had signed up to. Certainly, when an outside country complains about Belgium penalising its visiting sailors against its promise made in that treaty and not rescinded since, it's going to be on rock-solid ground - but granted, the local law may give xenophobic Belgian douaniers some comfort!

To facilitate temporary admission by simplifying and harmonising procedures through the adoption of standardised model papers as international customs documents with international security, thereby contributing to the development of international trade.
Remarks The Convention on Temporary Admission (the Istanbul Convention) is a single international instrument combining all the existing Conventions on temporary admission. It is aimed at simplifying and harmonising temporary admission procedures. It entered into force on 27 November 1993. Temporary admission without payment of customs duties is established to minimise the costs of border crossing and provides an important incentive for the development of a country’s economic activity. The Convention provides for the free movement of goods across frontiers and their temporary admission into a customs territory with relief from duties and taxes. It also requires contracting parties to accept the ATA carnet, an international customs document that assures through an international guarantee system that duties and taxes will be paid in cases of misuse. With this system the international business community enjoys considerable simplification of customs formalities as the ATA carnet also serves as a goods declaration at export, transit and import. The ATA carnet is now the document most widely used by the business community for international operations involving the temporary admission of goods. Annexes to the Convention accepted by the EC: A; B.1; B.2; B.3; B.4; B.5; B.6; B.7; B.8; B.9; C; D; E.

So your saying Red fuel in our yachts is fine over in EU territorial waters, we just have to fill out the ATA Carnet that the Istanbul Convention refers too

 

[Blue Sunray]

Valid point, just found the US hasn't signed it. Therefore, EU customs should provide a clear and realistic procedure, that visiting boats from a non-signatory countries should follow, instead of hopping on the boat and issue multi-thousand $ fines. Forcing boats to use white fuel outside of EU jurisdictions or full fuel system cleaning before entering EU waters is unrealistic.

BTW, same stands for the numerous Channel Islands based (or just registered?) boats, that may have dye residue in their systems.

Of course, should (even if one was to agree that) is not the same as will. This is also complicated by the fact that we are not talking 'EU customs', but the customs services/forces of 27 member states operating under their own rules, albeit the they should be in compliance with the EU directive.

As things stand now and, I'd say until the end of 2020 at least, anyone travelling to the Continental EU is taking a bet that they won't be fined, it is of course, entirely up to the individual whether or not they take that bet.

 

[lw395]

You are missing the point that euromarked diesel carries the euromarker which is chemically different from the marker dyes used in the US. A proper test for the euromarker should discriminate between marked diesel bought in the eu and 'red diesel' bought in the USofA.
AIUI, Jersey red diesel is euromarked.

I suppose there is some potential for EU marked diesel to get exported to say Turkey or Albania and sold legitimately as local marine diesel?

 

[Blue Sunray]

To facilitate temporary admission by simplifying and harmonising procedures through the adoption of standardised model papers as international customs documents with international security, thereby contributing to the development of international trade.
Remarks The Convention on Temporary Admission (the Istanbul Convention) is a single international instrument combining all the existing Conventions on temporary admission. It is aimed at simplifying and harmonising temporary admission procedures. It entered into force on 27 November 1993. Temporary admission without payment of customs duties is established to minimise the costs of border crossing and provides an important incentive for the development of a country’s economic activity. The Convention provides for the free movement of goods across frontiers and their temporary admission into a customs territory with relief from duties and taxes. It also requires contracting parties to accept the ATA carnet, an international customs document that assures through an international guarantee system that duties and taxes will be paid in cases of misuse. With this system the international business community enjoys considerable simplification of customs formalities as the ATA carnet also serves as a goods declaration at export, transit and import. The ATA carnet is now the document most widely used by the business community for international operations involving the temporary admission of goods. Annexes to the Convention accepted by the EC: A; B.1; B.2; B.3; B.4; B.5; B.6; B.7; B.8; B.9; C; D; E.

So your saying Red fuel in our yachts is fine over in EU territorial waters, we just have to fill out the ATA Carnet that the Istanbul Convention refers too

I recall from the early 1990s Carnets being a bit of a bureaucratic pain, but they wouldn't be relevant here as the offence is not failing to pay a duty.

 

[GTom]

You are missing the point that euromarked diesel carries the euromarker which is chemically different from the marker dyes used in the US. A proper test for the euromarker should discriminate between marked diesel bought in the eu and 'red diesel' bought in the USofA.
AIUI, Jersey red diesel is euromarked.

I suppose there is some potential for EU marked diesel to get exported to say Turkey or Albania and sold legitimately as local marine diesel?

And as I learnt, the US is not a signatory of the 1990 convention, a different procedure should apply. Apparently governments didn't care much about pleasure boats, just commercial traffic.

Albania might be interesting here, in Turkey even white diesel is cheap.

 

[savageseadog]

Of course, should (even if one was to agree that) is not the same as will. This is also complicated by the fact that we are not talking 'EU customs', but the customs services/forces of 27 member states operating under their own rules, albeit the they should be in compliance with the EU directive.

As things stand now and, I'd say until the end of 2020 at least, anyone travelling to the Continental EU is taking a bet that they won't be fined, it is of course, entirely up to the individual whether or not they take that bet.

Yes. The EU is a mess.

 

[chrishscorp]

I recall from the early 1990s Carnets being a bit of a bureaucratic pain, but they wouldn't be relevant here as the offence is not failing to pay a duty.

No experience of carnets whatsoever. Offence being the marker, yes previously made the same point myself :encouragement:

The point i am making is the dye marker we use in our red diesel is the same as the red diesel marker in europe, so how would Mr Customs man know you havent illegally purchased/aquired the fuel in the EU ? unless you fill out a 29 page carnet and declare a guesstimate as to what you have in your tanks at the point of entry ?

 

[LBRodders]

Huge amount of [Belgium] Waffle on this thread...

 

[dunedin]

I think I would rather ship white diesel than a boatfull of lawyers and books of law.
Also a lifetime of diesel duty would cost a lot less than fighting your legal case through foreign courts to prove a point about the precedence between local laws, EC directives and International Conventions.

Still don’t understand why we think the U.K. needs this bizarre system that nobody else needs for yacht fuel

 

[Graham376]

Apparently governments didn't care much about pleasure boats, just commercial traffic.

One of a government's aims is to increase revenue. This year, GNR officers (Portuguese police) were given a target of tickets/fines to be issued, failing which they would be disciplined. UK boats could be seen as a golden goose to some and marked diesel may only be the tip of the iceberg. Off Topic but, what about import duty and VAT on equipment and personal goods being taken out to the boat based in EU?