lw395
Well-Known Member
Possession of euro-marked diesel in a road vehicle tank or leisure vessel propulsion tank in the EU is illegal.
Red Diesel - UK Government loses.
- Thread starter Seven Spades
- Start date
Possession of euro-marked diesel in a road vehicle tank or leisure vessel propulsion tank in the EU is illegal.
chrishscorp
Well-Known Member
I did, try reading post #161
GTom
Well-Known Member
Are EU Member states violating the 1990 Istambul convention on visiting vessels?
As I read it, an EU customs officer may search for hidden drugs, weapons, whatever hidden goods in the fuel tank, but he has no business with the dyes added to the fuel if the boat arrives from a non-EU port.
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Seven Spades
Well-Known Member
British flagged vessels are not "visiting vessels" we will become so but at this moment this convention does not apply to us but it should apply to the US flagged vessel.
BelleSerene
Well-Known Member
Chris, you didn’t. If you actually read the ruling that you provided the link to, you’ll see that (a) it is against a member state and not a citizen; (b) it’s about when the state should (and actually, specifically when it should not) add marker due to fuel; (c) it says nothing that would either bind a non-member state such as post-Brexit UK; (d) it says nothing about what EU states may or should do with regard to marked fuels that non-EU citizens have in their tanks for propulsion when they enter EU states. Which is what we’re talking about.
Neither this ruling nor the EU directive to which it refers says anything about it being illegal to have marked dye in your tank. The illegality (which is not created by this legislation, by the way) is in not paying the EU states’ fuel duty when buying fuel in the EU.
BelleSerene
Well-Known Member
lw395
Well-Known Member
No.
The fudge of allowing marked diesel buyers in the UK to pay the appropriate duty is basically what has just been ruled illegal.
BelleSerene
Well-Known Member
Yes, that's what a member State is or isn't allowed to do. We're talking about what an individual is or isn't allowed to do. As I wrote, what's illegal is not paying the EU states' fuel duty when buying fuel in the EU. It is not having diesel that happens to be marked in your tanks.
While the UK is in the EU there's no effective difference as the latter is evidence of the former. Once the UK leaves the jurisdiction of the EU, it's not. Then, having UK-derived marked diesel in your tank on arrival in an EU member State will then not indicate that insufficient tax was paid in an EU member State. As having marked diesel itself is not an offence in member states, Brits post-Brexit will not be breaking an EU directive or a member state's law by sailing in with UK-marked diesel.
alahol2
Well-Known Member
But that is not true. If bought in the UK, one may well have marked diesel in the tank on which full duty has been paid. That's the fudge.
awol
Well-Known Member
But if you have paid a 60:40 split or some other % the fuel in the tank is not "full duty" paid.
Champagne Murphy
Well-Known Member
Sounds like hair splitting to me. When the Belgian Customs cop marches you to the cash point I don’t rate your chances of getting those arguments to stick for long.
lw395
Well-Known Member
You need to look at the regulations in each member state, which cascade the requirements down from the state to the individual.
What happens when the UK leaves the EU is speculation at this point in time. It's possible we will still be in somesort of customs arrangement which means UK red will still carry euromarker and therefore will still be illegal to have in your tanks.
Much the same as if you get caught with it in a private car in the UK.
alahol2
Well-Known Member
That's why I said 'may well have'. If you choose a 100:0 (propulsion:heating) split then the fuel will be fully duty paid.
Mister E
Well-Known Member
This is a very good point. You can argue till the cows come home, but some countries diddip the tank and issue a fine.
It does not seem to matter if you have a receipt sayingredients tax paid.
BelleSerene
Well-Known Member
Of course - any abuse of power can mean you have a problem at the time. European countries tend not to do that in the main or repeatedly. Whereas if their law did make it illegal to hold foreign-sourced red dye in your tank, it wouldn't be an abuse of their law and they would continue to trouble post-Brexit UK visitors.
chrishscorp
Well-Known Member
From the judgement
In the present case, it is apparent from the documents before the Court that, in both the letter of formal notice and in the reasoned opinion which it sent to the United Kingdom, the Commission claimed, in essence, that the practice of the United Kingdom of authorising the use of marked gas oil as fuel for the propulsion of private pleasure craft, subject to the owner of the craft concerned making a declaration and paying the additional excise duty was contrary, in particular, to the ‘purpose’ and ‘objective’ of Directive 95/60.
So illegal for a member state to allow the use of marked diesel in a private craft.
The issue with the receipts is, in the legal argument is that there is no definitive way of proving the marked fuel in the tank you may have paid 100% duty on is the same fuel that is on the receipt with 100% duty paid
The first paragraph of Article 3 of Directive 95/60, far from permitting Member States to authorise, in some cases, the use of marked products as fuel for engines normally operating with fuel subject to excise duty calculated at the full rate, requires them, on the contrary, to take ‘the necessary steps’ to ensure that improper use of the marked products is avoided.
So all member states would/should be 'dealing' with those miscreants who misuse rebated fuel
I assume then, that the course of action open to member states will be, what individual member states local law is, on improper use of rebated fuel.
In the present case, it is apparent from the documents before the Court that, in both the letter of formal notice and in the reasoned opinion which it sent to the United Kingdom, the Commission claimed, in essence, that the practice of the United Kingdom of authorising the use of marked gas oil as fuel for the propulsion of private pleasure craft, subject to the owner of the craft concerned making a declaration and paying the additional excise duty was contrary, in particular, to the ‘purpose’ and ‘objective’ of Directive 95/60.
So illegal for a member state to allow the use of marked diesel in a private craft.
The issue with the receipts is, in the legal argument is that there is no definitive way of proving the marked fuel in the tank you may have paid 100% duty on is the same fuel that is on the receipt with 100% duty paid
The first paragraph of Article 3 of Directive 95/60, far from permitting Member States to authorise, in some cases, the use of marked products as fuel for engines normally operating with fuel subject to excise duty calculated at the full rate, requires them, on the contrary, to take ‘the necessary steps’ to ensure that improper use of the marked products is avoided.
So all member states would/should be 'dealing' with those miscreants who misuse rebated fuel
I assume then, that the course of action open to member states will be, what individual member states local law is, on improper use of rebated fuel.
Blue Sunray
Well-Known Member
Which is, of course why the offence (at least in Belgium) is an absolute one of having marked diesel in the tanks rather than one of avoiding paying duty.
BelleSerene
Well-Known Member
Yes. And those member states' definitions of rebated fuel will not include fuel purchased in a state outside the EU, whatever the tax applied to it, the rebate allowed by it on that tax, or the markers added to the fuel.
Tomahawk
Well-Known Member
The club we joined is not the one we are leaving. Which is why we are leaving it.. if we do manage to leave it but given the shower we have in power I am not sure we will.
Seven Spades
Well-Known Member
Not wishing to go OT, the problem with BREXIT is that those that wish to sabotage it in Parliament out number those that don't. Any politician who had any integrity would not have stood for leadership of the Conservative party following the vote to leave if they has not been a supporter of BREXIT. The country is bing led by someone who is trying to implement a policy that they do not agree with. No one in their right mind would accept a job that they thoroughly disagreed with except at the sharp end of rifle.
Anyway not to be diverted. In my opinion, we have the right to opt out and it is possible the Government will agree to do so post Brexit, but the default position is to adopt the status quo. So unless the RYA and CA do some serious lobbying we are going to get fame free white and have to pay through the nose to get it. If on the other hand we do decide to adopt our own rules and keep the red then I do not expect any more trouble than those from the Channels islands have. Belgium will back down as they won't want to lose our business. I fail to understand why some people here want to pay more tax on their fuel.