Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

GTom said:
I see it the other way: I don't see why a leisure activity should be additionally taxed? (red is also taxed at 10p/L) Road traffic is fairly taxed at a relatively high rate because maintenance of the road network is expensive and you normally don't pay for most of the infrastructure (roads, bridges, etc). While as a yachtie, you pay VAT on all services and goods, you pay for 90% of the infrastructure (canals, ports & marinas).
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I don't understand your thinking. Recreational boaters at the moment get a reduced rate so changing to road fuel at full price would not be an additional tax. As most boats don't have heaters, obtaining red under the current arrangement is a dishonest arrangement sanctioned by the government.

I don't understand the comment about road tax either which raises far more income than is spent on the roads, the rest just being used elsewhere. Also, how do yachties pay for 90% of infrastructure?
 
Graham376 said:
As most boats don't have heaters, obtaining red under the current arrangement is a dishonest arrangement sanctioned by the government.
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What survey did you use to get that answer? Personally just about every boat that I know, bar a couple of very small ones which are petrol anyway, have diesel heating.
 
CLB said:
What survey did you use to get that answer? Personally just about every boat that I know, bar a couple of very small ones which are petrol anyway, have diesel heating.
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I was going to say the same - we probably burn almost as much in the heater as we do in the engine each year.
 
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Quote Originally Posted by chrishscorp
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Errrr it doesnt comply with the directive hence this thread
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It actually did, with the directive as it was written. What the European court of ‘justice’ just did was extend the application of the directive, debarring the UK government from dying fuel on only a proportion of which duty was paid, by asserting that this was in line with the unwritten ‘intention’ of those who had written the directive. That ruling changed what the directive now requires of governments. Hence this thread!

I’m sorry, it never did comply, that is the basic flaw in all your reasoning.
When the directive came into force, a transition period started, during which all EU countries took all necessary steps to comply, except the UK. Since then all continental EU countries have been using white diesel for leisure craft and the UK has been trying to find a way round it. The only thing the European Court of Justice did, was make clear once and for good that the UK approach is not and has never been compliant.
 
Graham376 said:
I don't understand your thinking. Recreational boaters at the moment get a reduced rate so changing to road fuel at full price would not be an additional tax. As most boats don't have heaters, obtaining red under the current arrangement is a dishonest arrangement sanctioned by the government.
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Base = no tax. 10-20%: "realistic taxation" (see: VAT, lover effective income tax rates, RED DIESEL TAX RATE), more: compensation for the society for related costs (tobacco for healthcare, road fuel tax for road maintenance).

I don't understand the comment about road tax either which raises far more income than is spent on the roads, the rest just being used elsewhere.
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That's mostly correct, road traffic is overtaxed. However, a significant part of our health problems is related to traffic (even obesity/cardiovasculars: instead of biking, we jump in our cars), channeling road fuel revenues to healthcare is I think justified. I fail to see, what costs should boat traffic compensate besides marine infrastructure and gov't marine services (coast guard, weather service), especially on sailing boats, where a large proportion of fuel is used for heating (my case at least...)

Also, how do yachties pay for 90% of infrastructure?
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Do you have a free marina berth? The price you pay for a 30' boat in a marina each year (~3000£ = >500£ VAT payment) is more, than the acquisition and installation cost of an average navigation buoy.
 
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GTom said:
What's wrong with having a separate tank for heating?
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Absolutely nothing at all - and you could quite legally have marked diesel in that. The EU ruling only relates to fuel in tanks that can be connected to the engine.
 
maby said:
I was going to say the same - we probably burn almost as much in the heater as we do in the engine each year.
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50% of not a lot is hardly a base to fight from.

I use petrol in my lawnmower. It doesn't mow the road or need a Nav buoy to operate. So where is my rebate/special ruling?

Its equally as [ir]relevant
 
LBRodders said:
50% of not a lot is hardly a base to fight from.

I use petrol in my lawnmower. It doesn't mow the road or need a Nav buoy to operate. So where is my rebate/special ruling?

Its equally as [ir]relevant
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I can't speak for others, but I certainly was not making that statement in defence of any kind of concessions on fuel tax or availability for our boat. In the grand scheme of things, the cost of fuel going into our tanks is pretty small compared with marina fees, insurance and annual maintenance - I really don't care whether or not I'm allowed to put marked fuel in there provided there is a legal source of fuel readily available to me. We don't cross the Channel, so personally I'm not concerned whether or not the French and Belgians consider the fuel in my tanks legal, but I do have some sympath with those that do go abroad and I would be perfectly happy to pay the additional tax on the fuel if that is the cost of giving them the freedom to sail to Europe.
 
maby said:
I can't speak for others, but I certainly was not making that statement in defence of any kind of concessions on fuel tax or availability for our boat. In the grand scheme of things, the cost of fuel going into our tanks is pretty small compared with marina fees, insurance and annual maintenance - I really don't care whether or not I'm allowed to put marked fuel in there provided there is a legal source of fuel readily available to me. We don't cross the Channel, so personally I'm not concerned whether or not the French and Belgians consider the fuel in my tanks legal, but I do have some sympath with those that do go abroad and I would be perfectly happy to pay the additional tax on the fuel if that is the cost of giving them the freedom to sail to Europe.
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Some sort of quick self-test thing would be useful, just like a breathalyser kit for the peace of mind.
 
maby said:
I can't speak for others, but I certainly was not making that statement in defence of any kind of concessions on fuel tax or availability for our boat. In the grand scheme of things, the cost of fuel going into our tanks is pretty small compared with marina fees, insurance and annual maintenance - I really don't care whether or not I'm allowed to put marked fuel in there provided there is a legal source of fuel readily available to me. We don't cross the Channel, so personally I'm not concerned whether or not the French and Belgians consider the fuel in my tanks legal, but I do have some sympath with those that do go abroad and I would be perfectly happy to pay the additional tax on the fuel if that is the cost of giving them the freedom to sail to Europe.
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:encouragement:
 
CLB said:
What survey did you use to get that answer? Personally just about every boat that I know, bar a couple of very small ones which are petrol anyway, have diesel heating.
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For a start, 3 of the 4 boats I have bought didn't have heaters already fitted, as did lots of the smaller day sailed boats we looked at and know of, rather than larger boats regularly slept aboard. Several marina based people I know prefer to use electric heaters as well.
 
Graham376 said:
For a start, 3 of the 4 boats I have bought didn't have heaters already fitted, as did lots of the smaller day sailed boats we looked at and know of, rather than larger boats regularly slept aboard. Several marina based people I know prefer to use electric heaters as well.
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I'm not sure that that is a very scientific survey (quite apart from the fact that your tag line seems to indicate that you keep your boat in Portugal!). A quick tour of UK south coast marinas would seem to indicate that the majority of boats have heating fitted - and primarily blown air heating. How much they are used is a different matter - I'm always surprised how many people are willing to spend enough money to buy a flat or small house on an asset which is used little more than six months per year!
 
GTom said:
However, a significant part of our health problems is related to traffic (even obesity/cardiovasculars: instead of biking, we jump in our cars), channeling road fuel revenues to healthcare is I think justified. I fail to see, what costs should boat traffic compensate besides marine infrastructure and gov't marine services (coast guard, weather service), especially on sailing boats, where a large proportion of fuel is used for heating (my case at least...)

Do you have a free marina berth? The price you pay for a 30' boat in a marina each year (~3000£ = >500£ VAT payment) is more, than the acquisition and installation cost of an average navigation buoy.
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You seem to think any taxes should be allocated directly to specific areas whereas in reality all government income goes into the pot and then amounts are allocated to various services, regardless of their income generated.

As it happens I have no marina berth, I have my own mooring buoy which I don't pay rent for. How are marina costs relevant to the costs of navigation buoys? The net profit goes to owner, either private or local authority. All the government gets is the VAT proportion, income tax for employees and any company taxation just like any other business but possibly rent to Crown Estates on top.
 
chrishscorp said:
Errrr it doesnt comply with the directive hence this thread :rolleyes:

Its fairly easy to discern a fishing boat, barge, tug, freighter or small ferry from a yacht and fairly easy to ask to see the coding certificate from a sea school yacht and record the details for HMRC.
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Bit like the scrap metal dealer at a marina I was visiting who filled his fairly large motor boat & had his invoice made out to his scrap yard.
 
maby said:
I'm not sure that that is a very scientific survey (quite apart from the fact that your tag line seems to indicate that you keep your boat in Portugal!). A quick tour of UK south coast marinas would seem to indicate that the majority of boats have heating fitted - and primarily blown air heating. How much they are used is a different matter - I'm always surprised how many people are willing to spend enough money to buy a flat or small house on an asset which is used little more than six months per year!
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Yes, my boat is in Portugal but I was based in Conwy for 15 years before that, boat used all year. I bet if I took the club launch around the moored boats today, I would see more without heater exhausts than with. People with larger more expensive boats forget there are lots of generally smaller and older day sailed boats out in the sticks, all around the country, without heating, radar and expensive electronics that it seems most forumites enjoy.

P.S. Now that cheaper imported heater are available, many more I'm sure will be fitting them:)
 
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