Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

In my experience there's little difference in the cost of white diesel from Tescos and Red Diesel from a marina. I don't have a lot of sympathy with Mobo users wanting to buy diesel cheaper for leisure than people pay to fuel their cars to go to work. Red diesel is an anomaly really as it was introduced in 1959 to allow diesel to be sent out at a rebated rate for these exempted vehicles, rather than requiring users to reclaim duty paid. With the growth in the number of eligible vehicles and the growing differential between the price of road fuel and rebated fuel, the introduction of marking allowed Customs to identify rebated fuel and check for its use in road vehicles, and ensured the administrative burden was kept to a minimum by allowing users to buy at the lower rate. Leisure craft burning vast quantities of diesel were virtually non existent then so were almost irrelevant. Times have changed and its a nonsense that red diesel is available to leisure users.
 
jimi said:
In my experience there's little difference in the cost of white diesel from Tescos and Red Diesel from a marina. I don't have a lot of sympathy with Mobo users wanting to buy diesel cheaper for leisure than people pay to fuel their cars to go to work. Red diesel is an anomaly really as it was introduced in 1959 to allow diesel to be sent out at a rebated rate for these exempted vehicles, rather than requiring users to reclaim duty paid. With the growth in the number of eligible vehicles and the growing differential between the price of road fuel and rebated fuel, the introduction of marking allowed Customs to identify rebated fuel and check for its use in road vehicles, and ensured the administrative burden was kept to a minimum by allowing users to buy at the lower rate. Leisure craft burning vast quantities of diesel were virtually non existent then so were almost irrelevant. Times have changed and its a nonsense that red diesel is available to leisure users.
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I don't use "vast" quantities of diesel in a year, perhaps 150l? I do recall following a very large MOBO to the fuel berth last year and we ended up with nothing. He took 2700 litres! Cleared the tanks out. That is an abuse of the rebated fuel system, not 150l per annum.
Norwegians would take to the streets if they couldn't buy marine diesel at sensible prices. It's one of the few perks being on the water allows. Ditto in Ireland.
I am ultimately more keen on non-biodiesel remaining available for boat users. Contamination or poor road fuel might mean stopping and going home by bus.
At sea , diesel bug feeding on bio-enriched fuel could quite easily cost lives .
 
pagoda said:
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At sea , diesel bug feeding on bio-enriched fuel could quite easily cost lives .
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That's basically nonsense.
At sea if your engine stops due to diesel bug, that's because you haven't taken adequate care of your fuel.
Whether the fuel has biofuel content is pretty much irrelevant to diesel bug.
I've seen a few cases of diesel bug, all in red diesel.
I have never heard of diesel bug being an issue in a car. You might find a bit in the filter, that's all I've ever heard of, and I know a couple of people who deal in cars, including some that have been standing around.
There are many thousands of cars out there which go for many years without so much as a filter change. Tanks not cleaned out in 20 years.
The main problem with boats is piss poor design of fuel systems, compounded by lack of care.
 
pagoda said:
I don't use "vast" quantities of diesel in a year, perhaps 150l? I do recall following a very large MOBO to the fuel berth last year and we ended up with nothing. He took 2700 litres! Cleared the tanks out. That is an abuse of the rebated fuel system, not 150l per annum.
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...and that's called envy.
 
jimi said:
In my experience there's little difference in the cost of white diesel from Tescos and Red Diesel from a marina. .....
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I'm not sure that that is terribly relevant. Most marinas claim to make no profit on diesel - at least diesel sold to resident berth holders. I think you'll find that the bulk of the price difference you refer to is simply down to sales volumes. An average Tesco forecourt has a dozen pumps and they will all be in use almost continuously at least eight hours a day. They sell more fuel in a month than most marinas sell in a year - and they do that on hundreds of forecourts across the country - that adds up to a lot of bargaining power.
 
You are well informed on RYA news. I am pleased that you are. let us not so well read people know how it goes please? My view is.... why the hell did we sacrifice so much to win the war only to loose in the end.
 
cowpat said:
You are well informed on RYA news. I am pleased that you are. let us not so well read people know how it goes please? My view is.... why the hell did we sacrifice so much to win the war only to loose in the end.
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Is English your first language? If so, would you mind awfully re-typing your point using the conventions of that language so that it can be understood.
 
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Elecglitch said:
Is English your first language? If so, would you mind awfully re-typing your point using the conventions of that language so that it can be understood.
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Do you have difficulty with reading and comprehension? I understand perfectly what cowpat wrote. OK, there are a couple of minor errors. One of which is a missing question mark, something of which you are also guilty!
 
NormanS said:
Do you have difficulty with reading and comprehension? I understand perfectly what cowpat wrote. OK, there are a couple of minor errors. One of which is a missing question mark, something of which you are also guilty!
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Calm down, you're not doing your blood pressure any good.
 
I have to disagree with the assertion that the rebate for heating is a fiddle. It's probably true that false declarations are made by boats that use little or no heating but there are very large numbers of boats with heating that hardly never move, a lot of liveaboard or inland boats for example. As for the argument that leisure users should pay tax on all boat fuel I feel that is an infringement of the general principal of fair taxation. The EU might want to tax us more but there should in my view an accountability between what fuel is used for and the tax on it.
 
savageseadog said:
I have to disagree with the assertion that the rebate for heating is a fiddle. It's probably true that false declarations are made by boats that use little or no heating but there are very large numbers of boats with heating that hardly never move, a lot of liveaboard or inland boats for example. As for the argument that leisure users should pay tax on all boat fuel I feel that is an infringement of the general principal of fair taxation. The EU might want to tax us more but there should in my view an accountability between what fuel is used for and the tax on it.
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Well, without getting into the question of whether or not leisure sailors should pay tax on any fuel, I think there is an enormous amount of tax evasion in the 60/40 split claims. Undoubtedly there are some liveaboards who can justifiably claim that they are using a lot of the fuel they purchase for heating - we are semi-liveaboard and most years put a lot more fuel into the Weberspacher than we do into the Yanmar. But given that we do spend something like 75% of our time in the marina throughout the winter, I can assure you that more than 90% of the boats there are rarely occupied even for a few hours most weeks between early October and late March. The amount of fuel going into their heating every year is tiny.

One of our previous boats had no heating installed. On more than one occasion, I went to a fuel berth to fill up and the pump operator remarked "60/40?" - he was amazed when I replied "No, 100% propulsion - we don't have heating" - he was perfectly honest about it - all his customers automatically claimed 60/40 even in the middle of summer and on boats with no heating or generator fitted. I have claimed 100% heating in the past - when the marina we lived in had the lock closed for maintenance and we had no possibility of using the fuel for propulsion.
 
savageseadog said:
I have to disagree with the assertion that the rebate for heating is a fiddle. It's probably true that false declarations are made by boats that use little or no heating but there are very large numbers of boats with heating that hardly never move, a lot of liveaboard or inland boats for example. As for the argument that leisure users should pay tax on all boat fuel I feel that is an infringement of the general principal of fair taxation. The EU might want to tax us more but there should in my view an accountability between what fuel is used for and the tax on it.
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In the new situation I the only way to install a 2nd tank:(.

maby said:
... I think there is an enormous amount of tax evasion in the 60/40 split claims.
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If you assume, that marine diesel should be taxed at a rate of 140% (and climbing)... Problem is that fossil fuels, especially diesel is made the new "public enemy" - or rather call it cash cow - in Europe white fuel levy rising year-to-year.
 
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maby said:
I'm not sure that that is terribly relevant. Most marinas claim to make no profit on diesel - at least diesel sold to resident berth holders. I think you'll find that the bulk of the price difference you refer to is simply down to sales volumes. An average Tesco forecourt has a dozen pumps and they will all be in use almost continuously at least eight hours a day. They sell more fuel in a month than most marinas sell in a year - and they do that on hundreds of forecourts across the country - that adds up to a lot of bargaining power.
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And the odd independent still manages to be almost competitive, diesel is a commodity traded at commodity prices. Marina forecourts make significant profit
 
GTom said:
In the new situation I the only way to install a 2nd tank:(.



If you assume, that marine diesel should be taxed at a rate of 140% (and climbing)... Problem is that fossil fuels, especially diesel is made the new "public enemy" - or rather call it cash cow - in Europe white fuel levy rising year-to-year.
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If you actually sail in Scotland or North of here, heating is most of an all year requirement. We don't get excited by warmth until it averages over 10C. Even sailing in "summer" , I use a significant amount on cabin heating. Until Duty is fully imposed on all heating oil - I don't feel remotely guilty on the 60/40 split??
 
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