Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

westhinder said:
But I have never understood how so many seemingly rational people have tried to argue that they need not follow the rules of the club they belong to.
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...and yet you've just admitted to breaking the particular rule that people are complaining about. So you do get it a bit.
 
lw395 said:
If you buy 'marine diesel' outside the EU, isn't it likely to be white? What other countries dye their marine diesel red? And is it the same red dye as the EU countries use?

I'd like to think that buying 'marine diesel' in the W Indies and sailing to the EU in a non-EU boat you'd be OK? Provided you had receipts to show where you'd bought fuel.
What colour is it in Turkey?
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Another one who doesn't quite get it. Marked diesel can be any colour as long as it contains a chemical marker. Solvent Yellow 124 was the European marker though I believe it was superceded in 2015.
 
lw395 said:
If you buy 'marine diesel' outside the EU, isn't it likely to be white? What other countries dye their marine diesel red? And is it the same red dye as the EU countries use?

I'd like to think that buying 'marine diesel' in the W Indies and sailing to the EU in a non-EU boat you'd be OK? Provided you had receipts to show where you'd bought fuel.
What colour is it in Turkey?
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I think you'll find that a lot of countries mark their tax-exempt diesel red - the question is more one of which consumers are allowed to buy it and that seems to be where the differences are to be found. It would seem, for example, that US leisure boats are allowed to buy marked fuel.
 
I'm happy to have sold my last boat. Maybe buy another but this sort of argument puts one off!
My biggest concern was to get 'marine' treated diesel rather than road diesel with 10% biofuel in it, with all the bug implications. There is no way I could have refuelled with 'marine' white that I know of.
 
lw395 said:
If you buy 'marine diesel' outside the EU, isn't it likely to be white? What other countries dye their marine diesel red? And is it the same red dye as the EU countries use?

I'd like to think that buying 'marine diesel' in the W Indies and sailing to the EU in a non-EU boat you'd be OK? Provided you had receipts to show where you'd bought fuel.
What colour is it in Turkey?
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From what i remember of the case of the American MOBO dipped in Germany and fined, they were a large MOBO and had a Fuel Log with receipts showing dates, times, location and quantities of fuel taken on. It made no difference to the Official dipping the tank and fining them
 
chrishscorp said:
From what i remember of the case of the American MOBO dipped in Germany and fined, they were a large MOBO and had a Fuel Log with receipts showing dates, times, location and quantities of fuel taken on. It made no difference to the Official dipping the tank and fining them
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It wouldn't, as they are irrelevant to the offence which as has been stated numerous times, is having marked fuel in the tank.

It seems unlikely that Continental Europe (standfast Belgium) will imminently start targeting random UK vessels for fines, but should you fail 'the attitude test' I suspect it will be a case of standby for the fuel test kit to emerge. The tactic in the past has been for this to happen whilst passports are being 'inspected' and their return is then conditional on paying the fine.
 
doris said:
I'm happy to have sold my last boat. Maybe buy another but this sort of argument puts one off!
My biggest concern was to get 'marine' treated diesel rather than road diesel with 10% biofuel in it, with all the bug implications. There is no way I could have refuelled with 'marine' white that I know of.
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How ever do you imagine the Europeans have manage it these past 20+ years
 
sailorman said:
How ever do you imagine the Europeans have manage it these past 20+ years
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+1
I’ve been using my boat in the Med for the past 9 years. All diesel supplied at fuel berths is unmarked full cost fuel with varying percentages of FAME added to it. It doesn’t cause a problem to the engine and hasn’t led to any problems with the bug, perhaps because I use it 400 - 500 litres of diesel a year. Given that folks on this thread have been talking about using less than 10% of that it doesn’t surprise me that they get a problem with the bug.
Most marinas I’ve visited in UK are almost exclusively used by leisure boaters with working boats and fishing vessels making up a vanishingly small part of the customer base. Indeed, in Falmouth, it’s common to see the fishing boats being refuelled via cans rather than visiting the fuel berths. So I think it’s simply a case of doing what they do outside the UK: most places sell only full price diesel and petrol whilst occasionally, where there is enough demand, you’ll find a second diesel pump selling marked fuel to fishermen et al.
 
Elecglitch said:
It wouldn't, as they are irrelevant to the offence which as has been stated numerous times, is having marked fuel in the tank. ....
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AIUI, the phrase 'marked fuel' has a particular meaning in this context.
Along the line of fuel carrying the particular trace chemicals/dyes used to denote rebated fuel in EU countries.
Some other countries dye some fuel various colours (including red) for other reasons, e.g. to denote biofuel or sulphur content, but that doesn't matter because it's not 'EU Red' or 'Irish Green' or whatever.
What they are testing for is 'Euromarker' AKA Red 124.
Having that in your tank pretty much denotes the fuel came from marked supplies in an EU country.
 
lw395 said:
AIUI, the phrase 'marked fuel' has a particular meaning in this context.
Along the line of fuel carrying the particular trace chemicals/dyes used to denote rebated fuel in EU countries.
Some other countries dye some fuel various colours (including red) for other reasons, e.g. to denote biofuel or sulphur content, but that doesn't matter because it's not 'EU Red' or 'Irish Green' or whatever.
What they are testing for is 'Euromarker' AKA Red 124.
Having that in your tank pretty much denotes the fuel came from marked supplies in an EU country.
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Sounds about right.
 
westhinder said:
I have never understood how so many seemingly rational people have tried to argue that they need not follow the rules of the club they belong to. We used to have red diesel too for our boats, until it was decided red was off limits. There were some grumblings at the time, because the price went up a bit, but that’s it. We adjusted and forgot about it. Unless you have a big mobo, it does not make a big difference in the total running costs of the boat, and if you do have a big mobo and are worried about the fuel bill, perhaps your boat is too big for your purse.
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A great common sense perspective :encouragement:
 
Elecglitch said:
It wouldn't, as they are irrelevant to the offence which as has been stated numerous times, is having marked fuel in the tank.

It seems unlikely that Continental Europe (standfast Belgium) will imminently start targeting random UK vessels for fines, but should you fail 'the attitude test' I suspect it will be a case of standby for the fuel test kit to emerge. The tactic in the past has been for this to happen whilst passports are being 'inspected' and their return is then conditional on paying the fine.
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Elecglitch, can you point to a source for this? Certainly, the EU directive is about selling marked diesel and buying it. It's not about having it in your tank. That's just used as evidence that you must have bought it (within the EU).

Why this matters is that if you're right, an American or Morroccan or Russian or post-Brexit British vessel travelling in to the EU with home-bought marked diesel falls foul of the EU law, whilst if I'm right they don't.

Your second point is true but I think not relevant. Of course renegade customs officers can make it up as they go along, and can bully the citizen. But they generally don't, and within civilised countries such as Franch, Belgium, Germany, Holland, they generally won't.

You say the offence is having marked diesel in the tank. Can you provide a link to that law or directive please?
 
Appledore said:
Although we have discussed this issue quite often, I am surprised that no mention of the Channel Islands has been made? As far as I know, you can only get red diesel in St Peter Port. And, of course, the Channel Islands are not part of the EU nor the United Kingdom. So red it will be, and perhaps fines for those who go to France, Belgium, Holland and so on? So boat owners in Guernsey will still risk fines, as they do now I suppose? BTW, my own boat is registered in Guernsey although based in Cornwall.
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Interestingly we get quite a stream of French boats turning up at our fuel berths during the summer to fill up with our cheap 'marked' fuel. I guess the risk to them being spotted back in Normandy is pretty low at their sleepy ports.

Our road diesel is about £1.15/l and that includes road tax. Our marine diesel is marked red (petrol green) and is taxed lower at around 75p/l. I imagine we will still be able to continue with reduced tax marine fuel as we are not involved with the EU, however there is a chance that checks in French ports will increase and that will cause us a problem. It would be fairly easy to have white and red diesel available portside as there are a number of outlets here and all are close to each other.

Perhaps we might introduce our own different marker dye that is relevant locally but not from an EU perspective.
 
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alahol2 said:
That, to me, seems like the obvious way out of the whole farce.
I guess the EU has got a rule outlawing it?
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No, it hasn’t. But - at the risk of repeating myself - no one has pointed to an EU rule outlawing red dye either. The directive outlaws the purchase, storage and sale of fuel on which the requisite tax hasn’t been paid. If that fuel was bought outside the EU, then for it to be imported in a vessel’s propulsion tank and used for propulsion will not break any EU regulation. Not whether the fuel is dyed red, blue or all the colours of the rainbow. And that’s precisely what the situation will be if the UK leaves the EU’s jurisdiction. You’ll fill your tank in the UK with red diesel purchased legally outside the EU and you’ll sail into the EU with it in your tank. No- one has pointed to an EU regulation that that breaks - and I suggest that’s because there isn’t one.
 
BelleSerene said:
No, it hasn’t. But - at the risk of repeating myself - no one has pointed to an EU rule outlawing red dye either. The directive outlaws the purchase, storage and sale of fuel on which the requisite tax hasn’t been paid. If that fuel was bought outside the EU, then for it to be imported in a vessel’s propulsion tank and used for propulsion will not break any EU regulation. Not whether the fuel is dyed red, blue or all the colours of the rainbow. And that’s precisely what the situation will be if the UK leaves the EU’s jurisdiction. You’ll fill your tank in the UK with red diesel purchased legally outside the EU and you’ll sail into the EU with it in your tank. No- one has pointed to an EU regulation that that breaks - and I suggest that’s because there isn’t one.
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https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:31995L0060
Article 3

Member States shall take the necessary steps to ensure that improper use of the marked products is avoided and, in particular, that the mineral oils in question cannot be used for combustion in the engine of a road-going motor vehicle or kept in its fuel tank unless such use is permitted in specific cases determined by the competent authorities of the Member States

Which in plain english means EU countries will nick anyone with 'euromarker' tainted diesel in their tanks.
 
lw395 said:
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:31995L0060
Article 3

Member States shall take the necessary steps to ensure that improper use of the marked products is avoided and, in particular, that the mineral oils in question cannot be used for combustion in the engine of a road-going motor vehicle or kept in its fuel tank unless such use is permitted in specific cases determined by the competent authorities of the Member States

Which in plain english means EU countries will nick anyone with 'euromarker' tainted diesel in their tanks.
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I don't know about the rest of them but my boat hasn't got wheels.
 
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