Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

[BelleSerene]

Again, you are misunderstanding the action that has been taken against some British sailors in Belgium. The authorities have not been penalising us for not paying the appropriate amount of tax on the fuel we have in our tanks, they have been penalising us for having marked fuel in the tank that is connected to the engine of a boat that is not eligible to use marked fuel for propulsion. There is a case on record of Germany penalising a US boat for having marked fuel in its tanks despite the fact that the fuel was purchased in a country that has never been subject to EU rules.

Leaving the EU (on the right terms) would mean that the UK government was no longer under pressure to stop us buying marked fuel, but it certainly does not protect us from action by EU members if we enter their ports with marked fuel in our tanks. Normal practice is that the EU does not try to enforce this rule on non-EU boats, but there is nothing in international law which says that they cannot.

Thank you, Maby. Yes, I understand and agree. As so often, you are right on the ball.

As you observe though, it’s not usual for the EU to enforce this rule, which is intended to protect its revenue, on non-EU boats. So whilst the odd renegade customs officer could still do it to UK vessels post-Brexit, just as one did to the US boat you mention, it’s not reasonable to believe the EU will start penalising non-EU boats in general for having red diesel in their tanks, is it? All good material for Project Fear, though.

 

[[163233]]

Since it's pretty hard to avoid red in many places, presumably it's also a bit of a problem for EU boats that visit the UK which is hardly a rare sight.

I guess no-ones heard of returning Belgians being prosecuted? Or any interest from EU sailors in this?

 

[sailorman]

This point has been made repeatedly on these threads and it is gobsmackingly evident that some posters don't have the ability to comprehend this relatively simple fact.

+2

 

[sailorman]

Since it's pretty hard to avoid red in many places, presumably it's also a bit of a problem for EU boats that visit the UK which is hardly a rare sight.

I guess no-ones heard of returning Belgians being prosecuted? Or any interest from EU sailors in this?

My dear fellow pleas do a forum search, the subject is at least 10 yrs & counting

 

[maby]

Since it's pretty hard to avoid red in many places, presumably it's also a bit of a problem for EU boats that visit the UK which is hardly a rare sight.

I guess no-ones heard of returning Belgians being prosecuted? Or any interest from EU sailors in this?

In my experience, the vast majority of foreign boats visiting this country are sailing boats, not mobos, and can go for long periods on the fuel they carry in their tanks. German friends of ours who visit here make a point of filling up on the other side of the Channel and have no difficulty avoiding contaminating their tanks with marked fuel. I guess it could be a problem for gas-guzzling mobos, but we see very few of them here from Europe.

Some Spanish friends of ours stayed over the winter a couple of years ago. They did go out of their way to avoid refuelling in the marina and would hitch lifts to the nearest pertol station with several jerry cans to buy enough unmarked diesel to keep the Eberspacher running.

 

[Seven Spades]

There is a case on record of Germany penalising a US boat for having marked fuel in its tanks despite the fact that the fuel was purchased in a country that has never been subject to EU rules.
.

This is true is was wrong of the Germans to do this and it is something that most other parts of the EU do not do. If they did they would not have any visiting yachts from outside the EU. Do you think that the EU is going to treat boats from the Channel Islands any differently after Brexit than they did before, they are not involved in Brexit?

I am firmly of the opinion that the British Government s free to decide to opt out of this ruling post Brexit. Technically this may cause us problems in Europe but in reality the EU would lose lots of tourists with nothing to gain, it is something that just needs to be negotiated. What should really happen is that foreign flagged vessels should not have their tanks dipped at all, British US, Australian, Turkish etc. All EU flagged vessels should obey the white only rule but goodness know what they are supposed to do when they leave the EU and travel to other parts of the world.

I do not understand those here who seem to want to embrace further taxation. I see not reason why fishermen or farmers or people heating should be exempt whilst yachtsman are not, where is the logic in that?

 

[Blue Sunray]

This is true is was wrong of the Germans to do this and it is something that most other parts of the EU do not do. If they did they would not have any visiting yachts from outside the EU. Do you think that the EU is going to treat boats from the Channel Islands any differently after Brexit than they did before, they are not involved in Brexit?

I am firmly of the opinion that the British Government s free to decide to opt out of this ruling post Brexit. Technically this may cause us problems in Europe but in reality the EU would lose lots of tourists with nothing to gain, it is something that just needs to be negotiated. What should really happen is that foreign flagged vessels should not have their tanks dipped at all, British US, Australian, Turkish etc. All EU flagged vessels should obey the white only rule but goodness know what they are supposed to do when they leave the EU and travel to other parts of the world.

I do not understand those here who seem to want to embrace further taxation. I see not reason why fishermen or farmers or people heating should be exempt whilst yachtsman are not, where is the logic in that?

Another poster with comprehesion difficulties. Opinionate all you like but the law and its applicability is clear.

It is true as has been said before that some authorities may decide (to continue to) not to enforce it due to possible loss of business, but that can change (and indeed has done in the past) with no notice. Travel to continental EU with traces of marker in your tank at your own risk. UK membership of the EU is utterly irrelevant to any case a pissed off douanier or similar decideds to make against you.

 

[pagoda]

Another poster with comprehesion difficulties. Opinionate all you like but the law and its applicability is clear.

It is true as has been said before that some authorities may decide (to continue to) not to enforce it due to possible loss of business, but that can change (and indeed has done in the past) with no notice. Travel to continental EU with traces of marker in your tank at your own risk. UK membership of the EU is utterly irrelevant to any case a pissed off douanier or similar decideds to make against you.

I have bought green dyed stuff in Denmark, Sweden and (Norway) (and Ireland at 70Ecents a litre) ) with no fuss whatsoever. Nobody in said countries was remotely interested? What is all the fuss about? There is perhaps more interest in the potential loss of NON-bio content diesel than the price alone? Who wants diesel more prone to going bad in boats where the issue could be close to life saving or not. I don't expect to see inshore fishing boats or RNLI queuing up to buy diesel which is questionable for marine use? Why should leisure users be exposed to the potential for problems?

 

[westhinder]

Since it's pretty hard to avoid red in many places, presumably it's also a bit of a problem for EU boats that visit the UK which is hardly a rare sight.

I guess no-ones heard of returning Belgians being prosecuted? Or any interest from EU sailors in this?

As a Belgian yachtsman I can assure you that Belgian customs officers regularly do checks on Belgian yachts’ tanks.
Most of us do all we can to avoid refuelling in the UK, and if it cannot be avoided we carry jerrycans from a roadside station to our boat.
I did a trip round Britain five years ago, so I had no choice but to use red diesel. I can assure you I was quite uneasy for a number of years afterwards whenever I saw customs officers on the pontoons in Belgian harbours. In the meantime I think I have used enough white diesel to be in the clear again.
But I have never understood how so many seemingly rational people have tried to argue that they need not follow the rules of the club they belong to. We used to have red diesel too for our boats, until it was decided red was off limits. There were some grumblings at the time, because the price went up a bit, but that’s it. We adjusted and forgot about it. Unless you have a big mobo, it does not make a big difference in the total running costs of the boat, and if you do have a big mobo and are worried about the fuel bill, perhaps your boat is too big for your purse.

 

[newtothis]

But I have never understood how so many seemingly rational people have tried to argue that they need not follow the rules of the club they belong to.

They tend to be the same people who are very strict on flag etiquette, however, when you join their club.

 

[Blue Sunray]

They tend to be the same people who are very strict on flag etiquette, however, when you join their club.

Really? You just made that up didn't you?

 

[BelleSerene]

Really? You just made that up didn't you?

He’s new to this.

 

[dom]

Again, you are misunderstanding the action that has been taken against some British sailors in Belgium. The authorities have not been penalising us for not paying the appropriate amount of tax on the fuel we have in our tanks, they have been penalising us for having marked fuel in the tank that is connected to the engine of a boat that is not eligible to use marked fuel for propulsion. There is a case on record of Germany penalising a US boat for having marked fuel in its tanks despite the fact that the fuel was purchased in a country that has never been subject to EU rules.

Leaving the EU (on the right terms) would mean that the UK government was no longer under pressure to stop us buying marked fuel, but it certainly does not protect us from action by EU members if we enter their ports with marked fuel in our tanks. Normal practice is that the EU does not try to enforce this rule on non-EU boats, but there is nothing in international law which says that they cannot.

When you say international law, do you mean concepts such as Innocent Passage which are mostly widely accepted, or others such as Freedom of Navigation which directly contest a sovereign's reach ....well it's best to contest the latter from the bridge of a warship.

In practice it's laughable to imagine say France and the UK tipping up to any international arbitration process to settle this little storm in a yotty diesel tank.

The point about fines being for using marked diesel not tax evasion is technically correct but largely a matter of semantics as it's simply more convenient for revenue protection purposes.

Moving forward, protecting the use of marked diesel for private leisure purposes is not something any UK government is going to fight over. Nor do moboers give a damn; for a glance at the mobo forum tells one that most bigger UK vessels live in the Med, where they are kinda designed to be.

A middle of the range biggish stinkpot such as a Princess 68 will cost £1.4-1.5m ex VAT. Tanks are not that big at 4200l, so if one fills them duty paid 3x a season it will cost something like £15,000 vs. around £13,000 if purchased at Port Hamble. Set against mooring/maintenance/capital costs the difference is entirely irrelevant, hence the RYA's focus on availability in regional marinas where the UK is of course somewhat different to Belgium!!

Solving this will require something practical, we all want to sail to France and beyond; they really really (esp Normandy & Brittany) want the British to come and a sensible solution will no doubt be found.

 

[maby]

...

Moving forward, protecting the use of marked diesel for private leisure purposes is not something any UK government is going to fight over...

.

You are, of course, quite right. In practice, the UK government is pretty disinterested in this whole argument - they allowed the RYA and BMF to bully them into a stupid interpretation of the EU directive and have gone along with it until recently when the ECJ ruled against this interpretation. If we do end up either staying in the EU, or signing up to a new treaty which commits us to accepting the relevant directives, then the UK government is certainly not going to pay fines to protect our supply of marked diesel. If we leave the EU on terms that do not oblige us to accept the relevant directives, then the UK government may continue to allow us to use marked fuel, but subject to the same warning as they currently issue - the use of the fuel is legal within UK territorial waters, but may not be legal elsewhere, it is the boat owner's responsibility to decide whether or not to enter the waters of another country with that marked fuel in their tanks.

The UK government has never said that we must use marked fuel. The problem is that, while they have permitted us to buy it, the marine fuel suppliers have taken the view that there was no point in offering unmarked fuel because the demand would be too low.

 

[BelleSerene]

Again, you are misunderstanding the action that has been taken against some British sailors in Belgium. The authorities have not been penalising us for not paying the appropriate amount of tax on the fuel we have in our tanks, they have been penalising us for having marked fuel in the tank that is connected to the engine of a boat that is not eligible to use marked fuel for propulsion.

Can someone please point me to the EU ruling, or perhaps law in individual EU countries other than the UK, that makes it an offence, as you say, to have marked diesel in your tank, as opposed to making it an offence not to have paid the requisite tax where you bought the diesel?

https://www.irglobal.com/index.php/...taxation-is-in-conflict-with-directive-9560ec

From what I understand, the EU court of justice ruling supports the EU's position that member states should not use red diesel when full taxation has been applied. That does not make it an offence for a yachtsman from a non-member state to carry diesel on which he has paid tax in his non-member state. (Or even to carry diesel on which he hasn't paid tax in his non-member state!)

Yet Maby and Noelex seem convinced that the offence is about having the marker in your tank, not about not having paid the requisite tax on purchasing the fuel.

For all I know, they may be right. But just repeating the claim doesn't make it true. Can anyone point to a law/ directive/ ruling that makes possessing the dye, as opposed to not having paid certain tax, an offence in member countries of the EU?

 

[dom]

Can anyone point to a law/ directive/ ruling that makes possessing the dye, as opposed to not having paid certain tax, an offence in member countries of the EU?

Here is a Revenue and Custom's interpretation (relevant laws are referenced at the top): https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...icles/excise-notice-75-fuel-for-road-vehicles

Notice that it doesn't mention anything about taxation, simply about the presence of certain dyes specifically including some EU ones which indicated the presence of rebated and duty free fuel.

 

[maby]

Here is a Revenue and Custom's interpretation (relevant laws are referenced at the top): https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...icles/excise-notice-75-fuel-for-road-vehicles

Notice that it doesn't mention anything about taxation, simply about the presence of certain dyes specifically including some EU ones which indicated the presence of rebated and duty free fuel.

Indeed. Obviously the rationale for all of this is to enforce the collection of taxes where the EU has decided they should be collected, but the implementation of that rationale is a two step process - "tax exempt fuel must be marked" and "the supply of marked fuel must be limited to the folowing classes of user..."

 

[maby]

P.S. the situation for vessels from non-EU members is unclear. If a non-EU boat (or car/lorry, for that matter) enters an EU country and, while it is there, obtains and uses marked fuel for propulsion, then it is committing the same offence as a local vehicle would be. Foreign nationality does not exempt you from local laws. The fuzzy area is the marked fuel which you legally had in your tanks when you arrived in the EU. There is a convention that the authorities turn a blind eye to this, but I don't think that convention is backed by any international law. The various EU directives do not cover this question.

 

[dom]

Widening this a bit: mooring my tub in the Hamble wld cost over £10K, vs half that in Cherbourg and much of Brittany. A meal for two in a UK waterside restaurant costs around £100 for average fare, the equivalent in France takes one close to Michelin Star.

I paddled ashore in Trebeurden this summer, tipped up at a waterside restaurant and ordered moules, Muscadet, top class oysters, frites, etc. The bill: EUR30 for two!

How come us lot moan about saving tuppence ha'penny on a splosh of diesel and passively accept price disparities which proximity to London only partly explains?

Re Brexit; the real threat to the UK is that France and other countries summon the energy to alter their corporate and personal taxation regimes sufficiently to attract UK firms. An unseemly race to the bottom would certainly upset the fiscal apple carts so -- for now -- nothing much is happening.

Against this bigger picture one cannot but help view the red diesel spat as a sort of 'prol-food' to keep the masses quiet while policymakers and fiscal authorities rest assured that it won't affect them above level of a few overeager bureaucrats :ambivalence:.

 

[lw395]

P.S. the situation for vessels from non-EU members is unclear. If a non-EU boat (or car/lorry, for that matter) enters an EU country and, while it is there, obtains and uses marked fuel for propulsion, then it is committing the same offence as a local vehicle would be. Foreign nationality does not exempt you from local laws. The fuzzy area is the marked fuel which you legally had in your tanks when you arrived in the EU. There is a convention that the authorities turn a blind eye to this, but I don't think that convention is backed by any international law. The various EU directives do not cover this question.

If you buy 'marine diesel' outside the EU, isn't it likely to be white? What other countries dye their marine diesel red? And is it the same red dye as the EU countries use?

I'd like to think that buying 'marine diesel' in the W Indies and sailing to the EU in a non-EU boat you'd be OK? Provided you had receipts to show where you'd bought fuel.
What colour is it in Turkey?