Red diesel - reply from the Belgian Embassy

RAI said:
The directive was agreed and passed by the UK's elected in-your-face representatives (ministers) in the European Council and not by the faceless unelected members of the European Commission.

The UK elected representatives passed it into UK law but chose to interpret its application differently from the rest of Europe.
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Name names!! and when they were voted in to make decisions for us in Europe?? I am not even sure how I would vote in my MEP must have missed that one. You are right about interpretation though it is usually us who follow letter of the law to the smalles detail.
 
emnick said:
You are right about interpretation though it is usually us who follow letter of the law to the smalles detail.
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You need to know the background to this decision. It was not originally government choice to allow the continuation of red diesel in leisure boats, but the result of pressure from the RYA and BMF responding to the concerns of users and the industry. Having made the decision and introduced the compromise both HMRC and politicians are currently defending it hard, but whether they will succeed long term is still an open question.
 
emnick said:
when [were they] voted in to make decisions for us in Europe??
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Um, last time you had a European election in your area? They usually run them at the same time as the local council elections to make more efficient use of the polling station. I voted for the UKIP chappy[1] at our last one.

Didn't you notice yours?

Pete

[1] (Not convinced that leaving the EU is a good idea, but wanted to balance up the mostly pro-union others)
 
emnick said:
Name names!! and when they were voted in to make decisions for us in Europe?? I am not even sure how I would vote in my MEP must have missed that one. You are right about interpretation though it is usually us who follow letter of the law to the smalles detail.
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No, not the MEPs. It is the European Council members. They are all national politicians of minister rank who pass all the directives. I guess this pleasure craft diesel directive was agreed and passed by the ministers of transport. So blame the UK government's minister in charge of transport at the time, he voted in favour. Undoubtedly, because it was unpopular in some quarters, he blamed it on the "faceless eurocrats". But actually, most of the UK population is happy that "rich yachtsmen" now have to pay extra for their fuel.
 
well, why not use proper fuel in your boats then, i just filled her up with 400 liters/ 90 gallons of good old petrol, costing me near an arm and a leg, but it's pure white coloured, not the barbie like pink stuff you girls tend to run on :D.
 
yabba said:
well, why not use proper fuel in your boats then, i just filled her up with 400 liters/ 90 gallons of good old petrol, costing me near an arm and a leg, but it's pure white coloured, not the barbie like pink stuff you girls tend to run on :D.
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Well, I guess that the fact that our engine would probably explode if filled up with petrol has something to do with it...
 
prv said:
Um, last time you had a European election in your area? They usually run them at the same time as the local council elections to make more efficient use of the polling station. I voted for the UKIP chappy[1] at our last one.

Didn't you notice yours?

Pete

[1] (Not convinced that leaving the EU is a good idea, but wanted to balance up the mostly pro-union others)
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No, I honestly didnt.

The point I was trying to make was that we have NEVER had a vote on being in the EU. Recently it was debated due to a 100k E petition and and we are told now is not the right time I happen to agree with this) We were promised a vote it has, AFAIK never happened.

Now we are trying to promote democracy in the middle east but it is hardly democratic the way Greece and Italy have got new leaders.

I have never voted UKIP but am really tempted now.

Thanks for info though.
 
I have received no reply from the Belgian embassy and have today e-mailed one of my MEPs, Andrew Duff.

Oh and by the way IMHO, a vote for UKIP in UK elections is simply a vote for the Liberal Democrats or Labour - they just split the Conservative vote and have no real hope of being elected to the UK parliament on a first past the post system although in proportional representation they do get to the European Parliament. :eek:

Dear Mr Duff
I am writing to you as one of the MEPs for the East of England as your membership of the Committee for Constitutional Affairs is the closest fit I can find to the issues raised by my problem.
I sail from the East Coast of England and would like to hop over the channel using Ostend as a staging point. You may be aware that Belgian Customs officials are automatically fining UK sailing boats with red diesel in their main tanks despite the Royal Yachting Association having obtained confirmation from the EU Directorate-General for Taxation and Customs that "According to the Community excise legislation and the jurisprudence of the European Court of Justice, in case of fuel transported in the normal fuel storage tank, the excise duty is chargeable in the Member State of acquisition according to the national rules. It falls upon the Commission to enforce the compliance of national legislation with Community law. People can acquire red diesel in the UK and use it legally in another member state of the European Union, if transported in the normal fuel storage tank."
I have asked the Belgian Embassy to confirm that, as seems to be the current Belgian practice, if I visit Ostend with red diesel in my tank, and receipts showing it to be duty paid to the satisfaction of HMRC, I will inevitably incur a fine.
An e-mail went unanswered and a follow up letter elicited the following response by e-mail from a Mr Serge Dickschen, Counsellor - Political Affairs, “The Belgian authorities are currently awaiting the result of an investigation launched by the EU Commission following a UK complaint pertaining to the fining of yachts using red marine diesel in Belgian waters. Let me reassure you that my authorities will implement the COM’s recommendations, whatever those might be, once they have received them. Meanwhile, they will continue to implement strictly the EU legislation as they understand it should be.”
Mr Dickschen has not replied to my e-mail asking for confirmation that the “Belgian interpretation of EU legislation as they understand it” means automatic fines for having diesel that is duty paid but simply coloured red.
I know that the RYA is actively pursuing this matter, but I cannot find any information on the progress of the UK’s complaint about fines. Could you help me please? Current EU guidance, and HMRC say that I am perfectly within EU law to buy and use red diesel throughout the EU as long as it is clearly recorded as duty paid, but the Belgians are, as a matter of course, fining boats with red diesel in their tanks regardless of any supporting paperwork acceptable as proof of duty being paid to the satisfaction of HMRC. Your advice and assistance would be appreciated.
 
Burnham Bob said:
I have received no reply from the Belgian embassy and have today e-mailed one of my MEPs, Andrew Duff.

Oh and by the way IMHO, a vote for UKIP in UK elections is simply a vote for the Liberal Democrats or Labour - they just split the Conservative vote and have no real hope of being elected to the UK parliament on a first past the post system although in proportional representation they do get to the European Parliament. :eek:

....
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Hmmm, well, the current Conservatives are so left wing that it really doesn't make much difference who gets in, so we may as well send them a message that will make them think.
 
Voting for who you believe is is never a wasted vote. Can't believe there are so many blinkered fools who still think EU is good! The rest of us always knew it was a disaster waiting (and now starting) to happen. God bless the Commonwealth!
 
PCUK said:
Voting for who you believe is is never a wasted vote. Can't believe there are so many blinkered fools who still think EU is good! The rest of us always knew it was a disaster waiting (and now starting) to happen. God bless the Commonwealth!
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Perhaps if we hadn't been British back in the 50s we may have made the Commonwealth a global trading brand that would have worked for us and the other members but we were to interested in trying to still be a world power all on our own, so that opportun ity was lost.

For practical purposes the only show in town is the EU, leaving is without any doubt a receipt for finacial disater. It would result in a massive increase in unemployment and a recession the likes of which we have never seen before. Do be careful what you wish for.

As for voting for the EU, we are not a referendum driven society, never have been and almost certainly never will be, thus our democracy like or not is based on elected representatives who make choices for us. If we elect those who cock it up as we have regularly done through my lifetime it is our fqault the pickle we are in not theirs.
 
maxi77 said:
Perhaps if we hadn't been British back in the 50s we may have made the Commonwealth a global trading brand that would have worked for us and the other members but we were to interested in trying to still be a world power all on our own, so that opportun ity was lost.

For practical purposes the only show in town is the EU, leaving is without any doubt a receipt for finacial disater. It would result in a massive increase in unemployment and a recession the likes of which we have never seen before. Do be careful what you wish for.

As for voting for the EU, we are not a referendum driven society, never have been and almost certainly never will be, thus our democracy like or not is based on elected representatives who make choices for us. If we elect those who cock it up as we have regularly done through my lifetime it is our fqault the pickle we are in not theirs.
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Perhaps if we hadn't been British back in the 50s we may have made the Commonwealth a global trading brand that would have worked for us and the other members but we were to interested in trying to still be a world power all on our own, so that opportun ity was lost.


The Septics scuppered that in the lease lend con
 
Burnham Bob said:
The idea of a mobo doing it is absurd. Even though I could top up with white diesel in the marina (although there are usually rules if you read the small print about unauthorised fuelling) it's a very difficlt process, although I can imagine it will be about the only way I can call in at Ostend on a coastal hop from Dunkerque to Vlissingen and will involve lots of trips to garages here in Burnham and at Ramsgate where we itend to sail from.
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I don't know about the majority of marinas, but my present abode has to abide by very strict environmental rules such that ANY spill of diesel (even the overflow from the breather) has to be mopped up immediately and not allowed into the water. This is in a commercial dock - and it appears to be adhered to by the commercial users (ferries and tugs, mainly), as the water is pretty clean and I've yet to see an oil scum on the surface. The dock itself is a heritage site, so I guess that may make a difference. But as far as oil pollution goes, it is far cleaner than my former marina, and has a much less relaxed attitude to oil going into the water; we certainly aren't allowed to pump bilges in the harbour. I haven't looked at the small print on my marina agreement, but I would be very surprised if filling up from cans was allowed - it would almost inevitably end up with diesel in the water.

For me, red diesel is inevitably going to be what is in my tank - I simply don't have access to anything else. Thankfully, I am on the wrong side of the country for this to be of much interest - though I'd like to know what experience people have of this issue in the Republic of Ireland, which IS a potential destination.
 
reply from my MEP as follows to the long missive asking about progress with the red diesel issue......

Dear Mr Calver,
Thank you for this. On the face of it, it seems you have a good point.

We will be in touch with the European Commission about this, and get back to you.

Yours sincerely,


Andrew Duff
 
Burnham Bob said:
Rather than post at the end of what must be one of the longest threads ever, I have received the following cryptic reply to my letter and e-mail.

Dear Mr Calver,
I’m contacting you following your writing to the Belgian embassy. Unfortunately the email you sent via the embassy website was not passed on to me and I apologise for that.

The Belgian authorities are currently awaiting the result of an investigation launched by the EU Commission following a UK complaint pertaining to the fining of yachts using red marine diesel in Belgian waters. Let me reassure you that my authorities will implement the COM’s recommendations, whatever those might be, once they have received them. Meanwhile, they will continue to implement strictly the EU legislation as they understand it should be.

I have now written back as follows:-

Dear Mr Dikschen,

Thank you for your e-mail. Please would you clarify what you mean by "they will continue to implement strictly the EU legislation as they understand it should be". Is their understanding that no vessel should have red diesel in its main fuel tank, although that red diesel was duty paid in the UK to the satisfaction of Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs?

If that is the case, then no pleasure vessel can in practice sail from England to a Belgian port without facing severe financial penalties from Belgian Customs. We cannot fill our main tanks at UK marinas with any diesel other than red diesel.

Please could you therefore clarify the point as to the current understanding of the Belgian authorities. Will red diesel automatically mean a fine when we visit Belgium?

so watch this space for the reply.............this one could run and run!
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Hi, Just got the RYA mag. today. It says in there they are on to it from both directions-direct to the Belgians and getting our guys to go and bat for us. Lets see what happens.
 
If the precedent is set that British marine diesel is unacceptable in Belgium, then oughtn't it follow that cheap Belgian road diesel isn't allowed on British roads?
 
AntarcticPilot said:
I don't know about the majority of marinas, but my present abode has to abide by very strict environmental rules such that ANY spill of diesel (even the overflow from the breather) has to be mopped up immediately and not allowed into the water. This is in a commercial dock - and it appears to be adhered to by the commercial users (ferries and tugs, mainly), as the water is pretty clean and I've yet to see an oil scum on the surface. The dock itself is a heritage site, so I guess that may make a difference. But as far as oil pollution goes, it is far cleaner than my former marina, and has a much less relaxed attitude to oil going into the water; we certainly aren't allowed to pump bilges in the harbour. I haven't looked at the small print on my marina agreement, but I would be very surprised if filling up from cans was allowed - it would almost inevitably end up with diesel in the water.

For me, red diesel is inevitably going to be what is in my tank - I simply don't have access to anything else. Thankfully, I am on the wrong side of the country for this to be of much interest - though I'd like to know what experience people have of this issue in the Republic of Ireland, which IS a potential destination.
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I have never seen a customs officer or coastgaurd official board a yacht or even approach one on a marina in Dublin. Been sailing here for 5 years or more. I doubt that Ireland would take a beauracratic approach like Belgium. If ( and its a big if) you were approached the officials would most likely turn a blind eye if they thought you were nice people, or perhaps related to the woman next doors son in law.
 
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