Red diesel - reply from the Belgian Embassy

lenseman said:
You are somewhat wrong with the above statement. The regulations are laid out in the Transportation of Dangerous Goods, HSE at Work Regs 1992 etc.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/hsg51.pdf

See Section 9 and 12:

The law is quite clear, you cannot exceed the limit regarding petrol cans as this is the fuel which is covered by the British law as mentioned in HSE and DfT et al.

The fuel that is restricted has a flash point lower than 55°C and this covers petrol not diesel which is classified as a heavy oil. You will note in HSE section 12 it specifies a Flashpoint lower than 61°C because diesel is stated to have a flashpoint greater than 62°C.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_point

Although petrol is listed as having a Flashpoint of -45°C ? :confused:

Unfortunately, petrol pump attendants and the petrol companies themselves seem to think the law applies to both petrol and diesel.

Companies such as Eurostar have their own rules in place and these state petrol and diesel, 2 x 5 litres cans maximum.
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Thank you,its as i thought
 
makes you wonder!

I am a little bemused at the way the EU wants to enforce this (IMHO) trivial matter. It would appear that we (GB) are being victimised by these faceless unelected people that are in what I would only call a job creation excersise.

With the way the Euro is going this is like stacking deck chairs on the Titanic. They must have better things to do than this!! If I have understood this correctly it is all about dye? not if duty has been paid.

The govenment gave permission to use red diesel so if the government have got it wrong can we pass on any fine to HMRC and claim a rebate.

It makes me wonder what the situation was prior to the common market, EEC and EU when I guess you had to get customs on board when going to Europe did they dip your tank then? or was it never a problem is suspect.

UKIP........................are starting to look viable. Rant over sorry
 
lenseman said:
You are somewhat wrong with the above statement. The regulations are laid out in the Transportation of Dangerous Goods, HSE at Work Regs 1992 etc.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/hsg51.pdf

See Section 9 and 12:

The law is quite clear, you cannot exceed the limit regarding petrol cans as this is the fuel which is covered by the British law as mentioned in HSE and DfT et al.

The fuel that is restricted has a flash point lower than 55°C and this covers petrol not diesel which is classified as a heavy oil. You will note in HSE section 12 it specifies a Flashpoint lower than 61°C because diesel is stated to have a flashpoint greater than 62°C.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_point

Although petrol is listed as having a Flashpoint of -45°C ? :confused:

Unfortunately, petrol pump attendants and the petrol companies themselves seem to think the law applies to both petrol and diesel.

Companies such as Eurostar have their own rules in place and these state petrol and diesel, 2 x 5 litres cans maximum.
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Once again, (and again, and again!!!) I must point out that the regulations in the link above refer to the storage of petrol in containers and NOT the dispensation of fuel at a filling station forecourt

The rules we have to follow at work (and which, with detail variations, apply at all UK filling stations) are not enshrined in any specific legislation. They are stated in our licence to dispense petroleum and other flammable liquids

The statement "Unfortunately, petrol pump attendants and the petrol companies themselves seem to think the law applies to both petrol and diesel" is misleading (and annoying - this common misapprehension causes no end of hassle and aggravation!) because our licence does not differentiate between the two. It simply refers to "fuel".*

There is no correlation between what you can legally carry and/or store and what we can legally, under the terms of our licence, permit to be filled.

Edit: * and elsewhere defines fuel as any flammable liquid which perforce includes petroleum, diesel, paraffin and so on
 
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emnick said:
I am a little bemused at the way the EU wants to enforce this (IMHO) trivial matter. It would appear that we (GB) are being victimised by these faceless unelected people that are in what I would only call a job creation excersise.
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The directive was agreed and passed by the UK's elected in-your-face representatives (ministers) in the European Council and not by the faceless unelected members of the European Commission.

The UK elected representatives passed it into UK law but chose to interpret its application differently from the rest of Europe. This is very unusual for the UK, who generally apply the most strict interpretation of EU directives and usually complain about other EU countries' using a more liberal interpretation.

What is so hard to understand about the concept: - red diesel = duty free, white diesel = duty paid? Easy even for customs officers to understand.

OK, it's not so convenient this time for yachties.
 
mucklestone said:
Just to confirm, the reason we cannot fill up from the road petrol station is because the maximum you are allowed to fill up is 5L in a plastic container or 10L in a metal container unless it is properly fitted in a vehicle. I believe the maximum is two cans each. I was in the car when my friend was warned by the police for this for having 20L in a plastic can...

However this is not widely enforced and I have seen someone filled empty 2L pop bottles!!!!!! There are also loads who use 20L jerry cans etc but do not get stopped from doing it.

Even if these rules were not in place it would still be differcult. It is OK for the small vessel but if your tank is more than say 50L it starts to become differcult!!!!
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Typical of the problem in this country and many others. Did 2 m people die last year because they transported 20l of diesel in a plastic container for a short distance in their car NO - It a new industry called jobsworths turning sensible guidance into laws and fining people that transgress these laws.
 
Now add German Customs dispensing large fines to unsuspecting yachts and motorboats which have red diesel! :eek:


Admittedly they were megayachts, but the warning is clear for all cruising sailors headed for Europe after being in America, even for a short time. Two megayachts have been boarded and fined thousands of dollars by German customs officers in Kiel for having red-tinted fuel in their tanks.

The first yacht was ending a summer-long Baltic cruise when it was boarded in November. The most recent incident, which happened in July, came when the yacht was ending a springtime cruise. Neither captain wanted their names or yacht names mentioned since both have obtained lawyers to sort things out. We are honoring their requests.

'They’ve set up a maritime speed trap and captains need to be prepared for this,' said the captain fined in July, who was in New York last month talking to attorneys.

At issue is the red-dyed fuel both vessels took on in the United States before heading to the Baltic. Despite taking on numerous liters of clear, duty-paid fuel after leaving the U.S., some of the U.S. fuel remained to taint subsequent tanks.

Red-dyed fuel in the U.S. is reserved for off-road uses such as marine and farm equipment. It indicates that federal road taxes were not paid, but it is not duty-free. Some yachts will pay state sales tax on their fuel, though yachts leaving the country can sign an affidavit to that effect and avoid state sales taxes. Whether sales taxes have been paid or not, all marine fuel sold in the United States is dyed red.

Red-dyed fuel in Germany is duty-free and also reserved for off-road uses but, as in all European Union countries, is only permitted for commercial vessels. Both megayachts fined are private vessels.

'We had taken a very small amount of fuel in the U.S. prior to our transport to Europe,' said the captain fined in November. The yacht cruised around the Baltic all summer last year, including Scandinavia and Russia, using about 38,000 litres of fuel, which was tax paid and clear.

'But our fuel still had a very light pink color,' he said. 'The chemical tests that customs use are extremely sensitive and will detect unseen quantities of dye. They told me it was illegal to mix tax free with tax paid.'

Customs officials immediately required a 10,000 euro bond to cover the fine that was yet to be determined. And the yacht was taxed 15,000 euros -- about .55 euros per liter of total capacity.

Then the captain had to pump out 8,000 liters of 'contaminated' fuel, clean the tanks, and refuel, he said.

'If you have had any red fuel in your tanks at any time, their tests will show the markers, even if you have used thousands of litres of clean fuel,' the November captain said. 'We are not allowed to fuel up to higher that 90 percent tank capacity, yet customs will tax you on 100 percent capacity, even if you have nearly empty tanks.'

After about seven months, the yacht’s agent was notified that the fine was 2,000 euros, and a month later 8,000 euros were returned to the yacht, the captain said.

Both captains retained all their paperwork showing where and when the fuel was bunkered and all their fuel samples. None of that seemed to deter the German customs officers. Communicating with the officers was difficult and stressful, the English-speaking captains said. The November captain was interviewed by four customs officers and three officers from the serious crime squad for about four hours, he said.

'Even if [Germany’s] duty-free fuel is also red, if the yacht has documentation that they bought the fuel somewhere else, there’s no basis for a fine,' said Marianne Vanstone, a fuel trader with Global Yacht Fuel in Ft. Lauderdale. 'How can they justify it? Looking at all his documentation, they can see he didn’t get the fuel there. That doesn’t make any sense to me.'

All of Europe offers duty-free fuel for commercial vessels, but many of them use different colors to mark it. In Italy and France, duty-free fuel is blue. In the UK, duty-paid fuel is red. [ read on . . . . ]

www.sail-world.com/Cruising/international/Foreign-yachts-fined-in-Europe-for-wrong-fuel/87266
 
sailorman said:
Post #51 is NOT an EU member & were still fined . how does that square with leaving europe
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That is quite true and preposterous! Given the way the US government protects its citizens overseas, expect an aircraft carrier steaming into the Baltic any time soon! :-)
 
reginaldon said:
Too true - why are there those who still doubt it?

Of course many of out MPs of (almost) all parties may be hoping for a nice sinecure in Brussels.
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It's also a fantastic get-out-of-jail-free card for national politicians - " Really sorry, but it's not our fault - blame Brussels!"
 
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