Reconditioned a legal term?

[Heckler]

ok so here is the preliminary report from French Marine.
1. Engine mounts. the rubber has become unbonded (sic) from the steel parts all four (photos supplied)
2. With the injectors removed we have put a small video camera into each bore and can see rust marks on the surface of all cylinders.
3. We have carried out a compression test on all four cylinders. From new the compression in each cylinder should have been 428psi. If the engine is in good condition we are looking for something close to this figure and there should not be a difference of more than 10% between all cylinders. the readings we got are;
Cylinder no. 1 = 375psi. this is more than 10% lower than the highest reading. we have checked this 2-3 times and it does not get any better.
Cylinders no. 2= 360psi. Also checked 2-3 times
Cylinder no. 3= 420psi. This is a figure we would expect and be happy with for an older used engine.
Cylinder no. 4= 420psi.

Cylinders 1&2. Four possible causes of low readings
a) The piston heights could be incorrect. This could be if water got into the cylinders and wasn't removed fully from the engine before trying to start it. You will try to compress water, which won't happen and the weak point is the connecting rods which bend and then make it short reducing the piston height and compression pressure.
b) Stuck piston rings, through sitting after submersion and not attended to during the refurbishment.
c) Valves not sealing in the cylinder head. Could be pitted, corroded or burnt away.
d) Glazed bores through general wear and tear.

4. There is no charging output from the alternator. Probably cheaper to replace with a pattern unit rather than repair.
5. We have been using your starter motor to turn the engine and have found that it works every time for us. The problem may be with the boats wiring/bad earth/ battery switch. having said that the case is not in great condition with serious corrosion to the aluminium anchorage lugs holding the unit together. These could fail in use leaving you without a working starter. this could do with being replaced.
6. The engine wiring harness is not in great condition with wires having been cut and corroded terminals in the plugs.
7. The turbo will need to be removed for checking/ overhauling due to the signs of rust internally. we don't know the cost of this as they all come back with a different cost depending on what is found to be wrong.
8. there is various amounts of corrosion to the outside of the engine that have not been cleaned/treated properly since a submersion to try and halt their progression.
9. The turbo oil return pipe is steel and is severely corroded. this needs a serious clean to check that it not at the point of perforation. If this fails all oil will end up in the bilge. The rubber pipe / jumper connecting this to the sump is not looking good either and will need to be replaced.

Conclusion.
This is only an initial look without going into to too much depth and we have already come up with quite a list of faults/possible faults. The engine is still showing visible signs of damage from the submersion both internally and externally. It is a job to say whether this engine has been refurbished and looking at the state of the rust/corrosion if it was supposedly attended to in 2016 we wouldn't expect it to be at this level of corrosion within 12 months. Also we question what did they check? Things like the mounts are obviously gone which was easy to see when removed and inspected.
Moving forward if you wanted this engine investigating further then we would suggest removing the cylinder heads to so that we can check piston heights, inspect the cylinder bores and subject to what we find strip the cylinder head to inspect the valves. we could then formulate a plan to from there to move forward again to make a final repair. What we can't tell you at the moment is whether it will be economically viable to repair this engine against the cost of a replacement. Any labour spent on getting this to the point of quoting the full repair cost would have to be paid regardless of whether the rebuild goes ahead or not.
labour to date to carry out inspection without major strip down £168

He then goes on to list the parts needed as known this far which is around £1630
He estimates that the labour cost to strip it further as described is £224
to quote again:
" it looks as though you could easily head towards £5-£6K +vat to do a rebuild on this old engine" whereas a "reconditioned" (that bloody word again)
engine of the same type ready to fit with all ancillaries would cost around £6300 incl.
so...... ignoring the fact that I don't actually have a spare £6K to either buy or rebuild at the moment.....is it worth getting the extra strip down done?

I smell the smell of? I would have expected the compression to be down a bit after standing. Normal deterioration is being presented as an argument to do expensive things. The piston height thing is I suspect a sideshow. As others have said, the working bits in a turbo dont rust. The cast housing on the hot side does, its cast iron, but that is not an issue. They glow red hot when working hard!
Tranona has eloquently described it. The issue for the OP is finding someone like me or Paul who have the requisite skills to be able to do the job properly at a reasonable price. I suggest looking amongst the farming fraternity for a decent tractor engine man. Gary Cotton used someone?
Stu
PS just done a bit of googling to try and find out what the compression ratio is of this engine. An obscure Oz site refers to it as 17.7 so doing the basic math to work out a ball park figure for the compression readings, 14.7 psi for atmospheric pressure times the compression ration of 17.7 gives 260 ish psi. For the pedants this is what it is, a ball park figure! So The figures they are quoting seem to be quite high. The rule of thumb is of course that the difference between the cylinders is the crucial issue, they should all be similar, however the fact that the engine has stood for months could explain that, corrosion of the valve seats that have had the valves left open would explain that. I am surprised also that a camera was used to inspect the bores! Surely it would have been just as easy to remove the head, given the engine is out, as to remove injectors etc?

 

[RichardS]

I smell the smell of? I would have expected the compression to be down a bit after standing. Normal deterioration is being presented as an argument to do expensive things. The piston height thing is I suspect a sideshow. As others have said, the working bits in a turbo dont rust. The cast housing on the hot side does, its cast iron, but that is not an issue. They glow red hot when working hard!
Tranona has eloquently described it. The issue for the OP is finding someone like me or Paul who have the requisite skills to be able to do the job properly at a reasonable price. I suggest looking amongst the farming fraternity for a decent tractor engine man. Gary Cotton used someone?
Stu
PS just done a bit of googling to try and find out what the compression ratio is of this engine. An obscure Oz site refers to it as 17.7 so doing the basic math to work out a ball park figure for the compression readings, 14.7 psi for atmospheric pressure times the compression ration of 17.7 gives 260 ish psi. For the pedants this is what it is, a ball park figure! So The figures they are quoting seem to be quite high. The rule of thumb is of course that the difference between the cylinders is the crucial issue, they should all be similar, however the fact that the engine has stood for months could explain that, corrosion of the valve seats that have had the valves left open would explain that. I am surprised also that a camera was used to inspect the bores! Surely it would have been just as easy to remove the head, given the engine is out, as to remove injectors etc?

I agree with Stu. The order of the low-compression explanations are not in a helpful order as no. 1 is probably the least likely. However, this issue could have been pinned down quite easily by the mechanic with a bit of oil in the low-comp cylinders to see if it was the rings/bores and, if that didn't improve things, a measuring rod down onto the piston crown to check the piston throw. If that looks OK then you're down to valves/seats and it's head off time.

It's not rocket science but just commonsense DIY engineering.

Richard

 

[lw395]

Not sure the OP is interested in resale value. The boat is a project intended for long term ownership. He has stated many times that he just wants a reliable engine, but has limited funds. Rebuilding the existing engine is probably the least worst alternative.

Even if long term ownership is planned, life happens and plans change and IMHO spending the extra 6k and having a more valuable boat that will be easier to sell is something at least worth weighing up.
If one does keep a boat for say 10 years, an extra 6k amortised across that period in exchange for having the best engine you can should IMHO be a strong contender.

Personally I would not expect and rebuild or re-con in the world of yacht engines to be as good as new, unless one has personal access to an engine builder of very high standards.
It is absurdly expensive to renew everything. How long before the re-con starts to show its true age?

I could get my bike engine rebuilt to 'probably better than new', but the gods of engine building don't come cheap. Neither does the parts bill when you replace everything that is not 'as new'.

 

[lw395]

I agree with Stu. The order of the low-compression explanations are not in a helpful order as no. 1 is probably the least likely. However, this issue could have been pinned down quite easily by the mechanic with a bit of oil in the low-comp cylinders to see if it was the rings/bores and, if that didn't improve things, a measuring rod down onto the piston crown to check the piston throw. If that looks OK then you're down to valves/seats and it's head off time.

It's not rocket science but just commonsense DIY engineering.

Richard

It sounds like it might be absolutely fine with a bit of fettling and careful running in.
But the report sounds like a recipe for spending a lot of time and money, possibly at risk.

 

[sailaboutvic]

It sounds like it might be absolutely fine with a bit of fettling and careful running in.
But the report sounds like a recipe for spending a lot of time and money, possibly at risk.

Well he did ask one of the most expensive Volvo dealer to take a look ,
They PDI my new engine on a new boat some years back , and told me I had to have a service within 50 hour for the warranty to stand , no problem till I got their bill and nearly die ,
I was billed for four hours labour , when I knen exactly within 20 mins the time the guy arrived and left .
In the end they offered me a load of spare parts to compensate for the time difference.
I can see why Paul rainbow says there sums don't add up ,
I am also surprise that the head asnt been removed and a camera was used .
There seen to cover all bases just in case .

 

[ghostlymoron]

This thread seems to have reached the "angels dancing on the head of a pin" stage. Entertaining but not useful to the op.

 

[RichardS]

This thread seems to have reached the "angels dancing on the head of a pin" stage. Entertaining but not useful to the op.

Errrrrrr ..... the OP posted up the engineer's report so that the experienced marine mechanics on this forum (probably the best practical engineers in the world) could comment on the findings.

And, guess what, that is exactly what we are doing.

Richard

 

[ghostlymoron]

"recondition meaning, definition, what is recondition: to repair a machine or piece of equipment and return it to a good condition: ."

 

[Tranona]

Even if long term ownership is planned, life happens and plans change and IMHO spending the extra 6k and having a more valuable boat that will be easier to sell is something at least worth weighing up.
If one does keep a boat for say 10 years, an extra 6k amortised across that period in exchange for having the best engine you can should IMHO be a strong contender.

Personally I would not expect and rebuild or re-con in the world of yacht engines to be as good as new, unless one has personal access to an engine builder of very high standards.
It is absurdly expensive to renew everything. How long before the re-con starts to show its true age?

I could get my bike engine rebuilt to 'probably better than new', but the gods of engine building don't come cheap. Neither does the parts bill when you replace everything that is not 'as new'.

But he has made it clear that he does nothave that kind of money.

The engine has only run a few hundred hours and the faults discovered so far are relatively minor and there is no reason why a strip down, clean and put back together plus a replacement starter, alternator, mounts and wiring loom should not result in a reliable long lived engine for a fraction of £12k.

My advice would be to take the head and sump off to check the crank at one end and the valves at the other, plus strip the turbo. If that shows no nasties then clean it all up and put it back together. In short, what the previous owner should have done in the first place.

 

[solent clown]

this is a useful thread and a salutary one, it has gone way past the original question of course, and that is a good thing. The OP has chosen to expand upon the findings of the engineers report to pool knowledge from forum members, and share his journey through the process of sorting out the engine. This is splendid, and exactly what makes such facilities as this forum so very useful.

 

[penberth3]

It sounds like it might be absolutely fine with a bit of fettling and careful running in.
But the report sounds like a recipe for spending a lot of time and money, possibly at risk.

Too much to trawl through now, but didn't the OP say the engine was actually OK?

IIRC, engine was running fine on purchase, 12 months later OP found water in the gearbox.

 

[Heckler]

this is a useful thread and a salutary one, it has gone way past the original question of course, and that is a good thing. The OP has chosen to expand upon the findings of the engineers report to pool knowledge from forum members, and share his journey through the process of sorting out the engine. This is splendid, and exactly what makes such facilities as this forum so very useful.

Nail on head!
Stu

 

[solent clown]

Nail on head!
Stu

Stu, thank you sir, for fellows like us with a technical background, it is a tad frustrating to read sometimes the struggles other people have, and all the kind wishes and offers of help do no good if someone is miles away. Thus it is always good to see someone stumble through the process, learning as he goes, and logging his experiences for others to follow. If nothing more comes from this whole situation than someone comes across this thread, and picks out the jewels from the muck, thus avoiding a similar fate, then the OP has done a great service.

 

[Malabarista]

Stu, thank you sir, for fellows like us with a technical background, it is a tad frustrating to read sometimes the struggles other people have, and all the kind wishes and offers of help do no good if someone is miles away. Thus it is always good to see someone stumble through the process, learning as he goes, and logging his experiences for others to follow. If nothing more comes from this whole situation than someone comes across this thread, and picks out the jewels from the muck, thus avoiding a similar fate, then the OP has done a great service.

The OP has, as always been blown away by the kind help and expert knowledge received on this forum. Thanks guys ( and girls if applicable)
I shall forget any notions of moaning to the PO or bitching to the broker. My plan is to pay French Marine and thank them very much for their work. Take the engine home put it on the kitchen table ( maybe) and teach myself a bit of spannering. Then i will probably be back on here asking for help in how to tell which way up things are supposed to go

 

[Heckler]

The OP has, as always been blown away by the kind help and expert knowledge received on this forum. Thanks guys ( and girls if applicable)
I shall forget any notions of moaning to the PO or bitching to the broker. My plan is to pay French Marine and thank them very much for their work. Take the engine home put it on the kitchen table ( maybe) and teach myself a bit of spannering. Then i will probably be back on here asking for help in how to tell which way up things are supposed to go

Download this https://www.sv-zanshin.com/r/manuals/yanmarservicemanual3jh4e_4jh4ae_4jh4-te_4jh4-hte.pdf
and have a good read.
Stu

 

[superheat6k]

One line in the report made me laugh out loud ...

"Cylinders 1&2. Four possible causes of low readings
a) The piston heights could be incorrect. This could be if water got into the cylinders and wasn't removed fully from the engine before trying to start it. You will try to compress water, which won't happen and the weak point is the connecting rods which bend and then make it short reducing the piston height and compression pressure."


Really !!!

 

[Malabarista]

One line in the report made me laugh out loud ...

"Cylinders 1&2. Four possible causes of low readings
a) The piston heights could be incorrect. This could be if water got into the cylinders and wasn't removed fully from the engine before trying to start it. You will try to compress water, which won't happen and the weak point is the connecting rods which bend and then make it short reducing the piston height and compression pressure."


Really !!!

I did ask him to make the report readable by a mechanical numpty. one of my brain cells is currently occupied and the other one is not very clever.

 

[RichardS]

One line in the report made me laugh out loud ...

"Cylinders 1&2. Four possible causes of low readings
a) The piston heights could be incorrect. This could be if water got into the cylinders and wasn't removed fully from the engine before trying to start it. You will try to compress water, which won't happen and the weak point is the connecting rods which bend and then make it short reducing the piston height and compression pressure."


Really !!!

Classic result of hydrolocking. As I said above, the least likely of the 4 causes listed but still a well-documented phenomenon.

Richard

 

[PaulRainbow]

Classic result of hydrolocking. As I said above, the least likely of the 4 causes listed but still a well-documented phenomenon.

Richard

So, when no 1 comes to the top and locks, bending the rod (just enough to drop the piston height a few thou), how do you get no 2 to lock and bend the rod ?

 

[penberth3]

The OP has, as always been blown away by the kind help and expert knowledge received on this forum. Thanks guys ( and girls if applicable)
I shall forget any notions of moaning to the PO or bitching to the broker. My plan is...

Well that's very decent of you. A lot of the defects in that report should have been visible, such as wiring and engine mountings, obvious things that don't need a specialist to spot. And it does still work, doesn't it?

It's all experience, there's no such thing as a bad experience! Have fun.