Reconditioned a legal term?

[PaulRainbow]

You can get some squishy plastic strip (one of the engineers here will know the name) to check the main and big end bearing clearances without an expensive micrometer. I bet they will be OK !

That'll be Plastigauge. I know the name, but i wouldn't use it to check a crank.

In terms of wear, this crank should be OK, it's only supposed to have done 344 hours. But as it has been in a flooded boat, it would be unacceptable to carry out any work on this engine without checking it.

 

[Heckler]

That's a very generous offer,
Stuff. Hope you're not overwhelmed.

Ive done it for a few people on here.
Stu

 

[lw395]

A motorcycling mate of my Dad has a collection of bent and broken bits.
Trials bike plus deep water can equal bent rod it seems!

I did get the impression the report was steering the OP away from working on this engine.
I can understand that to some extent, it is an open ended job once you start having things to bits.
There is a tough path to be steered between leaving things alone that are not broken and checking every last thing.
A job which one might be reluctant to go near when the OP has started by making noises about taking people to court.

 

[PaulRainbow]

It was imho cya speak also it helps to lead the OP down the frightened path of new engine, the bent rods are a blind alley. My money is still on the valves. In 60 years of repairing engines Ive never actually seen an example, just heard of the one off my trusted friend.
Stu

I once drove a car through a puddle in a car park at a few MPH. The puddle turned out to be almost up to the top of the sills and as the air intake was low the engine tried to drink the puddle. Was probably doing 20MPH at high engine RPM, but the damn engine stopped dead. We got a bit wet pushing it out of the puddle and went to a small repair shop a few hundred yards away. I borrowed a plug socket and took the plugs out. There was water in just one cylinder, the air filter box was full of water and the filter was soaked, as were the electrics. Binned the filter, emptied the filter box, spun it over on the starter with the plugs out, sprayed the electrics with WD40 or something, plugs back in and away she went, bit spluttery at first.

This was an almost new car fitted with a light weight high performance petrol engine, the momentum of a ton or so of car, traveling at 20MPH and an engine spinning at maybe 4000 RPM couldn't compress a cylinder with water in it. Yes, a Yanmar starter motor can turn a diesel engine, with heavy duty rods, over hard enough to not only bend the rod, but to somehow then either compress the water, or to squeeze the piston down the cylinder enough for the engine to continue turning and bend another rod. Wonder why id didn't carry on and bend the next two.

 

[PaulRainbow]

A motorcycling mate of my Dad has a collection of bent and broken bits.
Trials bike plus deep water can equal bent rod it seems!

I did get the impression the report was steering the OP away from working on this engine.
I can understand that to some extent, it is an open ended job once you start having things to bits.
There is a tough path to be steered between leaving things alone that are not broken and checking every last thing.
A job which one might be reluctant to go near when the OP has started by making noises about taking people to court.

I've worked on small capacity 2-strokes used for racing where they are so highly tuned and the squish is so finely set that revving them past the max designed (in it's tuned state) RPM will allow the con-rod to stretch enough so that the piston will kiss the inside of the cylinder head....bang !

I once had a Suzuki snap the rod at high RPM, which totally destroyed every part of the engine, including the casings.

But, we're talking about a diesel engine with heavy construction, being cranked on the starter.

 

[[3889]]

Surely the question is whether or not there was a misrepresentation. This is answered by the op, he was told the engine was reconditioned, it appears not to have been,

There seems to have been at least an innocent misrepresentation... no need to go to the point of proving fraud....

look at this link for some insight.http://www.allenovery.com/publicati...-available-if-rescission-is-possible-too.aspx or the Mis Rep act 1967.

caveat emptor only goes so far, .if there are no questions asked then it applies with a vengeance..but
if you are told something you are entitled to rely on it, if you do and it turns out to be false you are entitled to damages...

The damages it would seem are the cost of getting the engine overhauled....or if not possible the cost of fitting a reconditioned engine. (not the price of a new engine).. If I was you i'd have a rattle off the seller and his broker, start by writing to them and let them know the issue and ask for their comments....

good Luck

Absolutely agree. If a false description of the goods is given, intentionally or otherwise, it is a breach of contract. This only needs to be proven to the standard of the balance of probability. From theinformation the OP provides he has a strong SCC claim against the vendor, unless the vendor can supply evidence of meaningful reconditioning.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Absolutely agree. If a false description of the goods is given, intentionally or otherwise, it is a breach of contract. This only needs to be proven to the standard of the balance of probability. From theinformation the OP provides he has a strong SCC claim against the vendor, unless the vendor can supply evidence of meaningful reconditioning.

What evidence would the OP be providing that it wasn't "reconditioned" ?

 

[[3889]]

I tried, unsuccessfully, to delete this post as I belatedly realised the legal issue had been resolved.
In answer to your question, a mechanical engineer's report that "came to the conclusion that the chances that this engine was ‘reconditioned in 2016’ ( as stated on the selling particulars) was virtually zero." [OP's OP]

 

[sailaboutvic]

Absolutely agree. If a false description of the goods is given, intentionally or otherwise, it is a breach of contract. This only needs to be proven to the standard of the balance of probability. From theinformation the OP provides he has a strong SCC claim against the vendor, unless the vendor can supply evidence of meaningful reconditioning.

I think we and the op is passed this , now it's a way to move forward

 

[[3889]]

Yes, hence my comment in previous post.

 

[PaulRainbow]

I tried, unsuccessfully, to delete this post as I belatedly realised the legal issue had been resolved.
In answer to your question, a mechanical engineer's report that "came to the conclusion that the chances that this engine was ‘reconditioned in 2016’ ( as stated on the selling particulars) was virtually zero." [OP's OP]

But the one from French Marine includes the phrase "
It is a job to say whether this engine has been refurbished"

Anyway, as said, time to move on.

 

[RichardS]

How patronising.

Note that it refers to cylinders 1 and 2, that's two cylinders. Each cylinder has a piston and con-rod, so that's two of each of those, both ending with an s

Patronising .... I've got no idea what you're on about Paul?

This is what the engineer should have said, but he took a short cut and did not specify the "either or both - singular/plural" options clearly:

The compression is down on 2 cylinders. There are 4 reasons why this might be the case and these are, in order of decreasing likelyhood:

1) Corroded/worn/burnt vales/seats
2) Corroded/worn/glazed bores/rings
3) Leaking head/injector gaskets
4) Damaged/bent conrods/pistons caused by hydrolocking

Each of these possible faults may be the cause in either or both cylinders.

Does that do the trick!

Having explained all that, it's all still an irrelevance until Superheat6k returns to inform us what point he was actually raising.

Richard

 

[Euphonyx]

Short answer.... caveat emptor, unless you can prove negligent or wilful deception.

 

[ghostlymoron]

Ive done it for a few people on here.
Stu

I'm sorry to have called you Stuff. I find autocorrect exasperating.

 

[Heckler]

I'm sorry to have called you Stuff. I find autocorrect exasperating.

Dont need to apologise, I knew what you meant. At least we dont call each other names when the stupid Ipad uses our thick finger typing to post like it does.
Stu
PS Unlike Percy from Stoke, aka known as Parsifal!

 

[Tranona]

Short answer.... caveat emptor, unless you can prove negligent or wilful deception.

That is not the case for misrepresentation as you will discover if you read the whole thread. You only have to show that the claim made was not in fact true and resulted in a loss to you.

However it is now irrelevant as there does not seem to be enough evidence from the engineer's report to build a strong case, nor does the OP want the hassle of pursuing it.

 

[superheat6k]

I did ask him to make the report readable by a mechanical numpty. one of my brain cells is currently occupied and the other one is not very clever.

I write technical machine failure reports for refrigeration compressors, including a considerable number of reciprocating machines, as part of my day job. For a report to be credible it has to offer realistic scenarios based upon actual observation, and avoid supposition, which this comment is. My remark was made because in literally thousands of piston compressors which often suffer hydraulic failure I have never ever seen the effect described.

Had the observer actually seen such an effect then indeed he should report it, but to suggest a non realistic possibility as a supposition I feel is very misleading. Such comments can be particularly poor in a legal situation as a non technical judge could pick up on such comments as fact rather than supposition, and this is simply not fair.

Having read this report I am afraid I see little to determine whether or not the engine was re-conditioned (whatever that may mean) over one year ago, taking due weight of your own admitted neglect and failure to winterise since ownership and not least the fact the engine did work properly when you acquired the boat.

I concur with others that the costs to repair mentioned do seem fanciful.

 

[superheat6k]

I'll easily deal with that point in due course. As I said, it's not rocket science.

But I was actually addressing Superheat6k so first we need to hear from him to find out exactly what he was querying.

Richard

OK so my experience is with refrigeration compressors small, medium and large (to 300 HP). These will have a mixture of steel, alloy and cast rods. Never have I seen one bent and thus reducing piston height. Cast in particular will simply sheer and not bend.

The suggestion this could happen on a just the starter motor I find very hard to believe.

I have BTW seen literally thousands of broken piston compressors and every form of breakage of parts imaginable.

In all cases it is necessary if wishing to determine root cause to work out the part that broke first, the rest and invariably most of the damage that can observed is all secondary. In many many cases original root failure cannot be determined such is the extent of mostly secondary damage, masking the original failure.

Reporting should be based upon the facts as observed and not supposition.

E.g.

So the engine parts observed are rusty

Not

and it must mean the engine was not reconditioned 18 months ago.

Or

There is low compression and we advise further investigations to discover why, such as removing the cylinder head and carrying out further checks and inspections

Not

and it will likely be x, y, z

 

[RichardS]

OK so my experience is with refrigeration compressors small, medium and large (to 300 HP). These will have a mixture of steel, alloy and cast rods. Never have I seen one bent and thus reducing piston height. Cast in particular will simply sheer and not bend.

The suggestion this could happen on a just the starter motor I find very hard to believe.

I understand but I hope the discussion above shows that a bent conrod, and it only has to be a few mm, from hydrolocking is possible although it is the least likely scenario.

Conrods do bend and I have seen several bent ones over the years, and several snapped ones. I had a polished bent conrod (piston was still in perfect condtion) on my garage bench as a sort of trophy but it's gone in the skip now although that came from a seized engine rather than a hydrolocked engine.

Richard

 

[superheat6k]

I understand but I hope the discussion above shows that a bent conrod, and it only has to be a few mm, from hydrolocking is possible although it is the least likely scenario.

Conrods do bend and I have seen several bent ones over the years, and several snapped ones. I had a polished bent conrod (piston was still in perfect condtion) on my garage bench as a sort of trophy but it's gone in the skip now although that came from a seized engine rather than a hydrolocked engine.

Richard

I do appreciate that water logging in an engine is a rare event, whereas as a fault affecting fridge compressors is it amongst the commonest reasons for compressor failure. In a fridge system Oil and / or Liquid refrigerant entering the cylinder will have no where to go and the liquid cannot squeeze through the valve ports fast enough. The damage that results can be very interesting to view.