Rayamrine SPx-5 drive motor failure

[skyflyer]

The drive motor on our almost brand new wheelpilot has failed - you can hear it trying to turn but a nasty graunching sound leads me to think there has been some sort of gearing failure - the wheel moves a couple of degrees and locks solid.

It is under warranty and I am returning it to RM but I am concerned as to how and why it failed. If they think we have abused it then we will have to pay (£420)

I just wondered of anyone else has any similar experience of such a failure and if so, what causes it?

It strikes me that the failure could come from either end - ie by the motor driving the wheel or the wheel driving the motor.

the first is supposedly avoided by a current sensor so that if the motor is trying to draw too much current it stops working and an error message is displayed.

The second should presumably be countered by the drive belt slipping and/or the same process?

The manual gives very little user information about what you should and shouldn't do w.r.t damaging the unit, implying in my view that fail safes are built in.

At the end of the day, even if the a/p is engaged you need to be able - in an emergency - to over-ride it and turn the wheel, without first disengaging it.
Not that I have any recollection of such an event happening - it just seemed to work one day and not the next.

Other similar experiences would be helpful should it come to a 'full and frank discussion' as to whose fault this failure is!

Thanks

 

[Boathook]

................................
At the end of the day, even if the a/p is engaged you need to be able - in an emergency - to over-ride it and turn the wheel, without first disengaging it...............................

Thanks

With some autopilots you would not be able to 'fight' the autopilot without disengaging it. I know that my spx-5 has put up a battle when I forgot and it only takes a second to disengage. Even when the a/p is turned off but the clutch engaged, it is a battle to move the wheel.

 

[Tranona]

It will be the plastic gears that have failed. Non - servicable item as the whole lot is rivetted together. Had the same failure on two new units, both replaced FOC. Not very satisfactory as the failures screwed up a trip back from Corfu to UK. Current one seems to be working OK but does not fill me with confidence. There was talk that they were going back to metal gears but not sure if this has happened.

 

[rotrax]

The basic premis of the sale of goods and services act is that anything you buy must be fit for the purpose intended and of satisfactory quality. If, as you suggest, the motor is fairly new you should be able to make a good case for a warranty claim. According to another poster it does not appear to be an isolated fault............

 

[skyflyer]

It will be the plastic gears that have failed. Non - servicable item as the whole lot is rivetted together. Had the same failure on two new units, both replaced FOC. Not very satisfactory as the failures screwed up a trip back from Corfu to UK. Current one seems to be working OK but does not fill me with confidence. There was talk that they were going back to metal gears but not sure if this has happened.

Yes - just did a 17hr channel crossing on the helm all the time (not on my own at least) with a large chunk being at night with an overcast sky so was not amused by the failure!

I had heard that this was not an isolated problem, which is exactly why I was seeking some solid evidence from others, here

thanks

 

[maby]

There does seem to be a fairly widely held belief that the Raymarine Wheelpilots are very light duty devices - a quick search of this forum will provide a lot of opinions on the subject.

On the subject of your post, I don't think it's reasonable to expect to be able to force the wheel round with the AP engaged, even in an emergency. The gear ratio in that direction would be completely wrong and the motor will be fighting you - it will see your attempt at steering as an unwanted course deviation. I would expect that doing so would be a recipe for early failure. Disengage the clutch, then take control yourself.

I'm going to fit an SPX-5 on our SO33 in the next few weeks, but with a (hopefully) realistic expectation of it. I'm only looking for a light weight unit that will take control of the boat for short periods to help me set and trim the sails while single-handing and to give me time to go to the loo, make a cup of tea or a sandwich. I would never dream of trusting the boat to any autopilot for long periods unattended or in difficult sea conditions. On that basis, a wheelpilot at £1000 is a lot easier to justify than a linear drive pilot at £3000!

 

[skyflyer]

erm I never suggested I was going to leave it unattended! In fact far from it.

As to how easy it is to disengage that's another whole thread somewheer on this forum relating to where you have to site the motor (and hence clutch lever) in order to avoid causing non-compensatable (!) errors in the binnacle mounted compass!

However in this instance no attempt has been made to override the motor so it is irrelevant, but I was simply curious as to how it could fail.

Cheers

 

[maby]

erm I never suggested I was going to leave it unattended! In fact far from it.

As to how easy it is to disengage that's another whole thread somewheer on this forum relating to where you have to site the motor (and hence clutch lever) in order to avoid causing non-compensatable (!) errors in the binnacle mounted compass!

However in this instance no attempt has been made to override the motor so it is irrelevant, but I was simply curious as to how it could fail.

Cheers

Sorry if I misunderstood you - there certainly are people around here that seem to want to be able to leave the AP in full control for long periods and in difficult sea conditions!

As far as failure mode is concerned, they certainly do seem to be rather lightly engineered and there are several reports of failure. I'm tending to take the view that we're not planning on keeping our current boat for more than a couple of years and Raymarine products come with a warranty of at least two years, so given the function we are expecting from it, it is difficult to justify the expense of the linear drive.

 

[skyflyer]

Digressing slightly, but you raise an interesting point about what purpose it is or isn't fit for!

Legally, Sales of Goods Act says that if you make it known to the seller what you want to do and he sells you something to do it, then it has to be fit for purpose, even if it was never designed for that purpose originally!

Because our last RM wheelpilot (ST4000) was both aged and pretty useless we spent some time at the LBS talking to them and being very specific about the size of boat, the problems we had had with the ST4000 and whether the SPX-5 would be any better.

Specifically we spoke about the poor performance in a following or quartering sea and were assured that the SPX-5 was both suitable and more than capable!

(as an aside, we spoke about integrating it with a new e7 plotter and older ST50 tridata etc).

Whilst there was never any question that a pilot that has a ram acting directly on the rudder quadrant would be the best solution, there was never any doubt that Raymarine clearly indicated the SPX-5 should be more than good enough for us as non-racing, fair-weather sailors!

And basically their literature says so too:-

The SmartPilot X-5 Wheel is designed for yachts with a laden displacement of up to 16,500lbs (7,500kg)

It is also equipped with the latest SeaTalkng networking and a standard rate-gyro processor ensuring razor sharp course keeping under any conditions.

Easy-to-install Mk II wheel-drive delivers below deck autopilot performance

The specified motor torque is 90Nm. This equates (if my maths is correct) on a 1m diameter wheel , ie radius 0.5m to a force of 18kg at the rim of the wheel - that's a lot of back pressure to exert!

Anyway on that basis we went for the £1000 option rather than the £5000 one!

To be fair, it may simply be a rogue motor and they will probably replace it without question but in view of the fact that other people I spoke to seemed to be saying "oh, another one" that I thought it would be interesting to pose the question here as to what is reasonable to expect and how/why it might have failed.

In terms of what is reasonable - well I expect an autopilot that 'sells itself' like that to be capable of holding a heading in Force 4 with waves of 1 metre for several hours at a time. It doesn't have to hold the heading within 1 degree all the time so long as it averages a constant heading plus or minus 5 or 10 degrees then its doing a better job than me, especially at night with no external visual references!

I expect it to be able to manage the steering so that it frees the person who would otherwise be helming to help with raising and lowering sails, trimming and so forth.

When not under sail, but motoring I would generally expect a much better performance.

You cannot market a wheelpilot as they do and then subseqently say to the purchaser that it actually isn't much good when the wind gets above F4or the waves get over 1 metre! Can you?

 

[Tranona]

Having gone up the ladder from a 3000 to a 4000 and than an SPX, think i can tell the difference. The size recommendation is right - My Bav 37 displaces about 5500kg light so about 6500kg in cruising trim so is outside the 3000 but well within the 4000/SPX. In practice the 3000 was fine for light use and under motor when the boat was in Corfu, but pretty useless on the odd occasions when there was any weather/sea running. The 4000 was an improvement, but gears failed at low hours. The SPX is superior in its electronics and once set up coped much better with heavier weather. However, the gearbox is the same and also failed. Not enough hours on the latest replacement to test its durability, but performs OK in controlling the boat - if a bit noisy.

Against this poor experience, many of the charter boats in Greece use the SPX and generally it is reliable, unlike the early 4000s which had a habit of throwing off the belt as well as gear failure.

 

[maby]

Like most things that you research on the web, you do tend to get a fairly biassed view with the majority of opinions coming from people that have had bad experiences. I've asked around the marina and everyone with experience of wheelpilots is broadly happy with them, subject to the qualification that they are only suitable for light weather conditions. Equally, everyone with experience of wheelpilots has subsequently upgraded to a linear drive unit.

When it costs less than one third the price of the linear drive unit, something has to give. Having researched them a lot, both on the web and talking directly to people with experience of them, I've come to the conclusion that they are able to give a reasonably long period of good service if you are only intending to use them in light seas and for quite short periods of time - doing things like raising or trimming sails, going to the loo, fixing and eating a quick meal or drink, or going down to the nav table to check your position and fill in the log. If you want something that will reliably cope with heavy seas, possibly a moderate following sea, and last ten years engaged for multiple hours at a time, then you probably need to shell out the three grand (or more) for a linear drive unit.

Personally, I'm only looking for the light duty cycle and will save the money.

 

[Blue Fox]

Although I have a problem with my SPX5 concerning my compass ('non compensating error'), I have to say it outperforms any other wheelpilot that I owned before. My SPX works quite well in a strong following wind and sea, and for hours on end (20 hours no exception). You will have to turn the sensitivy down, in my case even to 2.
Of course it will also depend on the handling capacity of your boat. I don't think weight is the most important factor - but a balanced rudder certainly is!

 

[skyflyer]

Yes I agree that well balanced sails is probably the primary issue!