Radio Licence Penalties

[Mike_Martin]

I posted this in the "VHF Question" thread (in the Motor Boat Chat Forum) and have just decided that I would be interested in feedback on it but that it might be missed in there. The last para of my response may be of interest!

The question was:
" So whats the maximum fine for not having A. a radio licence. And B. an operators licence?"

The answer was:
"An Operators Certificate is a licence requirement, so if we come across you using a radio without it, you have invalidated the Ship Radio Licence and therefore rendered yourself liable to prosecution. In other words you can be treated the same as if you don't have a licence.

The Communications Act that made us part of Ofcom changed the way that we prosecute. The possibility of taking the case to Crown Court for simple unlicensed use has now gone, along with the unlimited fine and/or 12 mths in prison. At present a prosecution would take place through the Magistrates Court leaving a maximum fine of £5,000 and/or 6 mths custodial sentence.

The Act also made provision for on-the-spot penalties, this is something that Ofcom is actively discussing with the DTI in order to set the penalty levels before implementing. "

Mike

<hr width=100% size=1>Team Executive,
Maritime & Aeronautical Team, Ofcom

 

[Sea Devil]

But are you talking VHF or HF?

I have been told that if the boat (UK registered) is not in UK waters - (semi)permanently then you do not need to have a licence?? Is this correct?

In order to successfully prosecute someone for transmitting VHF or HF without an operators licence you would have to walk in (at sea?) and find them at the radio, in transmit mode, without another person on board supervising, who has an operators licence. Is this correct?

I belive it is ok to let someone use the VHF or the HF if there is a licenced operator on board supervising. Is this correct?

HF no longer has any emergency function on 2182. Coastguard station and ships are no longer required to monitor this frequency. Is there any point in having an operators licence for an SSB when the majority of the test is about sending Maydays?

Of course if anyone abuses the frequencies then they should be dealt with but frankly the major abuse comes on the high seas between merchant ships with very board watch keepers mainly at night - who monitors this? Who Prosecutes this?

Would be grateful for more info
regards

Michael



<hr width=100% size=1>If you have time visit my web site
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[Mike_Martin]

Marine Radio includes both plus radars, EPIRBS PPLBs etc.

NO that is not correct a boat is required to be licensed by its Flag State, the licences are international as is the call sign allocated by the process.

Yes supervision is accepted.

The old 2182 DISTRESS Channel has gone because it has been replaced by Digital Selective Calling.

Monitoring and prosecution depends where the vessel is but is reported to its Flag state if licensed, if it isn't any Administration can apply its own penalties. I have recently had to instigate remedial action against a well known UK cruise company after a report from the New Zealand administration.

Mike

<hr width=100% size=1>Team Executive,
Maritime & Aeronautical Team, Ofcom

 

[Sea Devil]

Mike thanks for the info - the problem with merchant ships that abuse the radio waves is that normally they do not identify themselves....

Is it correct that in order to bring a proscecution you need to find the person transmitting - with out a supervisor on board - actually at the set?

I mean how do you know if the operator is licensed or not or if there is a supervisor on board?

Is there any point in having a SSB operators licence as 2182 is not monitored by CC or ships any more and 95% of the test is about sending maydays? (This is covered by VHF and in fact is the same format) Would love your opinion on this.
regards
Michael

regards

Michael

<hr width=100% size=1>If you have time visit my web site
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[Mike_Martin]

There is a point in holding the Long Range Certificate (or better) as I'm afraid that you're contention that 95% of the course is about Distress calling is seriously flawed.

The LRC is about:
The concept and operation of the GMDSS, then propogation (really rather useful as MF/HF operation is nothing like VHF) theory, modulation & emission characteristics, full explanations of DSC and how it works, DISTRESS/URGENCY and ROUTINE calling on MF/HF/VHF and Inmarsat, use of beacons, use of Telex, explanations of Inmarsat and how it works, Antenna theory, and of course what frequencies do what job across the maritime service.

Does this help?
Mike

<hr width=100% size=1>Team Executive,
Maritime & Aeronautical Team, Ofcom

 

[Mike_Martin]

There is a point in holding the Long Range Certificate (or better) as I'm afraid that you're contention that 95% of the course is about Distress calling is seriously flawed.

The LRC is about:
The concept and operation of the GMDSS, then propogation (really rather useful as MF/HF operation is nothing like VHF) theory, modulation & emission characteristics, full explanations of DSC and how it works, DISTRESS/URGENCY and ROUTINE calling on MF/HF/VHF and Inmarsat, use of beacons, use of Telex, explanations of Inmarsat and how it works, Antenna theory, and of course what frequencies do what job across the maritime service.

Does this help?
Mike

<hr width=100% size=1>Team Executive,
Maritime & Aeronautical Team, Ofcom

 

[Sea Devil]

Michael hi.

I think you may be a little out of touch with the actual use of SSB for long distance cruisers -

Is it a fact that the CC and ships are no longer required to monitor 2182?
Distress calls on SSB 2182 are formulated in the same way as on VHF?

Most transmissions by cruising yachts are in the simplex mode. In the UK all coast radio stations - eg Portishead etc are closed down>

I have never met a cruising yacht with telex!

SSB is never used to receive beacons by cruising yacht - we all have gps.

academic knowlage of antena is interesting if you are a ham or enthusiast. As I am sure you are aware most cruising yachts have a couple of insulators spliced into their backstay. Far more important is the ground plates and it's connections and that is hardly covered at all in the radio operators course which is aimed at merchant ship operation who do not need them and no longer for the most part use HF.

Inmarsat is very useful for those who have the money but what is that to do with SSB operation?

If you subsribe to SAILMAIL - the most popular form of on board inexpensive email via SSB - you very quickly learn about frequencies and day night propagation etc - it is all explained very simply. Low day high night.

What does GMDSS have to do with SSB operation - I thought it was a VHF function?

Do you think there is a possibility that the operators licence for SSB needs rethinking? Particulaly bearing in mind that most of the merchant marine operates with satalite phones, nobody monitors the emergency frequency, and the average marine Icom or many ham sets are so simple that a look in the instruction book for each particular type of set is sufficient.

You didn't answer my question about evidence to bring a prosecution.

regards

Michael



<hr width=100% size=1>If you have time visit my web site
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[Mike_Martin]

Granted I've never had to use SSB, my boating is restricted to Coastal use usually of RIBs.

Yes it is a fact that 2182 is no longer monitored as DSC operation has replaced voice DISTRESS on new MF/HF Distress frequencies. In the same way that VHF Distress, Safety and Calling now take place on Channel 70.

The GMDSS is the newer name for the Maritime radio service and and includes all aspects NOT just VHF. VHF just gets bigger coverage because the majority of Pleasure boaters are only using VHF.

It isn't an SSB certificate, it is the Long Range Certificate and it therefore covers all the Long Range marine equipment.

Mike

<hr width=100% size=1>Team Executive,
Maritime & Aeronautical Team, Ofcom

 

[Sea Devil]

Michael hi,

The question I am asking is why is there a long range certicate required in addition to the Vhf certificate bearing in mind the questions I have asked you?

The long range licence to operate long range HF equipment, which in yacht terms means SSB, is out of date, irrelevent, and the course does not explain how to use the set. It concentrates on items that no longer have a use or function in 2004.

I am horrified at the price of a course that majors in emergency transmission in the test. - have a look - what is the point in teaching peope who already have a Vhf licence how to send a mayday when it will not be listende to by anybody?

Do you think you should have a look for the requirements for an operating licence for an SSB?
Do you think some research should be done into the actual use of marine SSB in todays world?

regards

Michael

PS you never answered my question about prosecuting people operating with out an operators licence -= do you have to catch them, in the act of transmitting without a supervisor on board.]#

PPS do you monitor HF marine frequencies?


<hr width=100% size=1>If you have time visit my web site
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[Mike_Martin]

The Long Range Certificate (LRC) is not required in addition per se. It is the next step up the Marine Operators Certificates ladder and outranks the Short Range Certificate. If you start off with VHF equipment only, the minimum qualification is the SRC. If you start off with MF/HF kit the minimum qualification is the LRC. If you go straight to the LRC you will never even look at the SRC.

The LRC was updated with the Maritime Service in 1999 hence its fulll coverage of all of the elements of the GMDSS.

You have raised the same point again! The LRC is not 95% about sending DISTRESS alerts even the SRC isn't. Please refer to the previous reply.

The sylabi for these certificates are set by the IMO and then implemented through the ITU within the international radio regulations.

The answer to the question is that we would have to prove the use but that doesn't mean red-handed exactly, if we've monitored the use then it's proven.

As the UK's Radio Administration, we of course have a monitoring centre, however, there is a lot more for us to listen to than just the maritime service.

<hr width=100% size=1>Team Executive,
Maritime & Aeronautical Team, Ofcom

 

[Sea Devil]

Michael hi,

Please understand I am not getting at you - you asked for feedback and that's what I am giving you.

To operate an SSB you need the relevent certificate - it then includes VHF which anyone who has a boat has anyway but it does not work the other way round and that is my complaint.....

My comments about the SSB course still stand - it is simply not relevent in 2004.
It contains issues like the use of the various safety frequencies and 2182 when nobody monitors these frequencies -

It contains issues about antenna types and lengths - most yacht have a fixed antenna on the back stay and an ATU.

It contains issues about Telex - usless except for hams

It contains issues about Immasat - nothing to do with SSB.

I repeat the average Icom marine SSB set is hardly more difficult to operate than a VHF with more ITU channels.

The only problem that a newcomer will have is finding out what frequencies Herb 12,359 and the other weather, safety and marine frequencies work on - that is not in the sylibus.

We are beginning to go round in circles with these posts.

You admit you have never operates an SSB in your life. All I am asking is that to help cruising yachts people you have the influence to find out how SSB works and is used in 2004 and bring the operators licence kicking and screaming into the same year.. You would be doing us all a favour.


regards and without any intent to be rude or thoughtless

michael

<hr width=100% size=1>If you have time visit my web site
www.michaelbriant.com/sailing

 

[Sea Devil]

Michael hi,

Please understand I am not getting at you - you asked for feedback and that's what I am giving you.

To operate an SSB you need the relevent certificate - it then includes VHF which almost anyone who has a boat has anyway but it does not work the other way round and that is my concern.....

My comments about the SSB licence course still stand - it is simply not relevent in 2004. It was designed for the merchant marine who now hardly bother to use their marine radios at all. They mainly use satalite telephones.

It contains issues like the use of the various safety frequencies and 2182 when nobody monitors these frequencies -

It contains long involved issues about antenna types and lengths - most yacht have a fixed antenna on the back stay and an ATU.

It contains issues about Telex - usless except for hams

It contains issues about Immasat - nothing to do with SSB.

I repeat the average Icom marine SSB set is hardly more difficult to operate than a VHF. The ITU channels are very comparble and for the rest.... Just have to know how to operate the set which is not part of the course.

The only problem that a newcomer will have is finding out what frequencies Herb (12,359) and the other (amater net) weather, safety and marine frequencies work on - that is not in the syllabus.

We are beginning to go round in circles with these posts.

You admit you have never operates an SSB in your life. All I am asking is that maybe you can help cruising yachts people?

You have the ability and influence to find out how SSB works in reality. Its modern but very limited and restricted usage now we have epirbs etc. Discover how it is used in 2004 and bring the operators licence kicking and screaming into the same year..

You would be doing us all a favour.


regards and without any intent to be rude or insensitve

michael



<hr width=100% size=1>If you have time visit my web site
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[DaveNTL]

Michael (Bambola) - I think the confusion is because you keep refering to SSB licencing.

The other Michael (that's confusing as well, but I'll sign off as 'Michael' too to keep it clear) was refering to VHF under the SRC - short range certificate.

Simply put, the SRC including GMDSS covers VHF radios including DSC. Also information on EPIRBs, SARTs, radar, navtex (not telex) and hand held VHF.

So, if you use a marine VHF radio onboard your yacht you need a SRC radio operator’s certificate. This is a one day course and costs about £75 + £20 exam fee

If you hold a VHF restricted operator's certificate and wish to update it to the GMDSS Short Range certificate, there are half day courses for around £50 + £20 exam fee

The Long Range Certificate - LRC, is what you require if you operate a SSB in UK waters. This is a higher level certificate to the Short Range Certificate and allows you to operate on any marine MF/HF SSB, satellite and VHF frequency. The GMDSS Long Range Certificate is a four day course and costs about £320 + £83 exam fee.

I can see where the confusion comes because I'm buying a yacht in the States that has an ICOM 802 SSB and (because I have a UK SRC with GMDSS) when I asked what licencing is required the answer was, "err... you fill in a form".

That remains to be seen but I certainly wouldn't be allowed to use it in the UK it seems - but that doesn't stop me registering the boat in the UK, even though I have no intention of bringing it here.

Cheers - Michael

ps: it's Dave really

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Sea Devil]

Dear michael - I mean Dave,

Thanks for that - you really make it clear -

The Long Range Certificate - LRC, is what you require if you operate a SSB in UK waters. This is a higher level certificate to the Short Range Certificate and allows you to operate on any marine MF/HF SSB, satellite and VHF frequency. The GMDSS Long Range Certificate is a four day course and costs about £320 + £83 exam fee.

If I remember correctly in the States you do just fill in a form and voila you can operate your SSB legaly - The above course (in my opinion) is a total waste of time and money and you only need it if you operate in UK waters ( I didn't know that!) That being the case there is no reason for taking such an expensive course for a licence we really do not need. Very few of us are going to use an SSB in UK waters and anyway Michal Michael said they do not monitor the HF frequencies anyway. Not that I would encourage anyone to break the radio laws!!!!

Well done buying a boat in the States. You can certainly save a lot of money doing that and they have some really nice ones.. Hope it all works well for you and thanks for putting things so clearly.

regards

Michael michael

<hr width=100% size=1>If you have time visit my web site
www.michaelbriant.com/sailing

 

[Mike_Martin]

Just a quick response:

The Qualifications are not a requirement to operate in UK waters! They are the requirement of the Radio Regulations.

I didn't think that a UK citizen is able to keep a boat US registered?

Mike

<hr width=100% size=1>Team Executive,
Maritime & Aeronautical Team, Ofcom

 

[DaveNTL]

Mike

I fully understand what you are saying about the licencing and of course you are correct. But certification doesn't seem to be the same everywhere, which is why I said 'in UK waters'.

It's a fact that lots of boats are now going around the States and Caribbean with SSB sets and there is no way all those people have LRC's. I will certainly get more details while I'm out there and post back here first week in October.

For example, the Icom M802 that I will be inheriting is a SSB set with DSC functions but is stated by Icom to be "not approved in Europe but available in the USA".

Regarding boat registration, as with property, there is nothing to prevent me owning a boat registered in the States provided I pay US sales tax and the relevant annual State licence fee, in which case it would fly the Stars and Stripes. However I will be exporting the boat out of the US under what they call the '90 day rule' (a tax window prior to export) thereby avoiding sales tax, after which I will register it in the UK (or BVI). Then of course we digress to the much discussed VAT issue, but this only applies if I want to bring it back to Europe, and I don't.

Michael,

Thanks for your good wishes. I'll be back (blimey! I could run for office in Fla!?) to post updates on liveaboard life with a novice better half. Should be fun!

This trip is for survey and sea trials and all going well we'll be off properly again mid October.

Cheers! - Dave

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[trouville]

ive twice called pan pan pan on 2182 when i ha d no licence and nothing. more than 15 years ago, and twice i was helped , i had got caught in abandond fishing nets the first time and the second time a large area of rope, both times the sea was rough so i couldent dive to clear the problem, and the forcast was not good in winter.
both times the life boat came out cut way the attached problem towed me to their base and in the calm let me clear the prop and rudder.
They asked only for their costs mainly fuel. and any contribution i would like to make truly a service to be thankfull for
As for using SSB they said that in such a situation i could use any means to comunicate.And were glad i had had a rig on board so that i could clearly discribe the problem--less stress for them and they came extra equiped ready tocut away the lines(which were snagged on the sea bed) they knew i wasent immediatly in danger as the weather wasent then to bad but worse was forcast and they brought a bouy to mark the remaining nets

An amature radio must be set up properly and used properly bad swr causes splater and thats another matter so use an amater ssb but use it properly and responsably

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