Radar Reflectors

[roblpm]

Hi

Having just bought my first boat (Parker 275) and being a generally law abiding type of person I looked up the RYA list of legally required safety items for my boat.

As I am going to be taking my kids out to sea I will obviously have a sensible inventory of safety kit, lifejackets, danbuouy, DSC radio, AIS receiver etc and have done the OFCOM license and CG66. (And I do know how to use them before anyone points out that seamanship is the best safety device!).

However I was suprised to see that the only legally required item of kit for all sizes of boats is a radar reflector! (actually flares and nav lights as well). Then I was even more surprised to look in to it and see that when tested they dont work!

So what is a sensible approach to this for a 28 foot boat? Have one on board for fog? Rig one permanently? And which one?!

 

[sailorman]

When i changed the standing rig on my 37 footer i fitted a mickey mouse plastimo cylindrical jobbie high up on the back stay, street legal all the time (even if it doesnt work ). In fog i hoist a Firdel from the lower spreaders, these are not well recommended either but the nxt step would be a "SeaMe", i willl not be spending £500 on that. I do have a AIS receiver running via open cpn on a lap-top

 

[Tranona]

The need for a radar reflector is overstated for simple coastal sailing. In poor visibility avoiding ships is more important so AIS and radar are arguably more useful.

A combination of AIS and an active radar signal is common. Permanently mounted reflectors such as the Blipper used to be popular but arguably not effective. If you want to visually demonstrate compliance then a basic reflector used in poor visibility is the simplest solution.

 

[lw395]

It's not really true to say the cylindrical reflectors 'don't work', just they don't meet the rather aspirational level of reflection.
Better than nothing, meets the spirit of the law and very likely to give a return at sufficient range to avoid collision.
A big octahedral is worthwhile in fog though!

 

[Twister_Ken]

It's not really true to say the cylindrical reflectors 'don't work', just they don't meet the rather aspirational level of reflection.
Better than nothing, meets the spirit of the law and very likely to give a return at sufficient range to avoid collision.
A big octahedral is worthwhile in fog though!

At many times when they are most needed - rain and high winds/big seas - the weak and inconsistent echoes from passive reflectors are likely to be lost in clutter.

 

[lw395]

At many times when they are most needed - rain and high winds/big seas - the weak and inconsistent echoes from passive reflectors are likely to be lost in clutter.

Everything has its limitations.
Some people are afraid to go to sea without every conceivable aid, others try to take a balanced view of risks, and make value for money choices to reduce risks.
Most leisure sailors concerns with radar reflectors relate to fog, which is not generally associated with big winds and seas.

 

[roblpm]

Hmmmmmmmmmm

Seems to me, buy a cheapy octohedral to put in the locker and save up for a sea me if I ever go to Norway!!

 

[rob2]

Actually, fog is often associated with big winds and seas - it depends largely on the season. I would think of radar in any restricted visability - rain, overcast, dark... I have an original single band (X-band) Sea-me fitted on a 28ft boat as it both saves space and complexity of hoisting a reflector and because I have greater faith in it's ability to improve the radar cross section of the boat. However, I still have everything ready to hoist a full size cylindrical reflector as well since this may just give enough enhancement in S band if needed, though their effectiveness is around a tenth in S band to their measured effect in X band.

I believe many of the comments about cylindrical reflectors are based on the ludicrous 2 inch diameter things that people hoist up the backstay - they really don't work worth a damn and if their small cross section is out of phase with the boat's natural reflectivity, it can make the boat disappear off the radar screen! But to date, only an RTE will achieve the requirements under realistic conditions.

Rob.

 

[Twister_Ken]

I believe many of the comments about cylindrical reflectors are based on the ludicrous 2 inch diameter things that people hoist up the backstay - they really don't work worth a damn and if their small cross section is out of phase with the boat's natural reflectivity, it can make the boat disappear off the radar screen! But to date, only an RTE will achieve the requirements under realistic conditions.

Rob.

Many comments may be, but following the loss of the Ouzo, a comprehensive test was carried out by Quinetiq at the behest of the MAIB, and all passive reflectors (bar one unfeasibly large (and expensive one)) were found to be NOT GOOD ENOUGH. And, yes the 2 inch dia excuses were found to be worst of all.

Conclusions of the report:

"
· Based on the results of this report it is recommended that yachtsmen always
fit a radar reflector that offers the largest RCS practicable for their vessel.
· The RCS of the radar reflector should have a minimum consistent RCS of 2m2.
· The Sea-Me is the recommended product if power is available
· If power is not available then the passive Large Tri-Lens reflector is
recommended
· The 4” tube reflector is not considered suitable due to its poor performance. It
is also recommended that the 2” tube reflector is not suitable since the
performance of this target will be even lower.
· It is recommended that poorly performing radar reflectors are not fitted as it
is possible that the user could be lulled into a false sense of security believing
that their chances of detection has been enhanced."

Full report here:
http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Radar reflectors report.pdf

 

[pvb]

Having just bought my first boat (Parker 275) and being a generally law abiding type of person I looked up the RYA list of legally required safety items for my boat.

Interestingly, there are no legal requirements for safety items for most small craft. Of course, most sensible people will equip their boats with items which reflect the type and area of sailing.
.

 

[bedouin]

I am pretty sure that there are no legal requirements for safety equipment on a boat your size.

If you want one then the options are really either the Firedell/Echomax permanently mounted or a fold-flat octahedral hoist when you need it. Since in practice you are highly unlikely to need it then I'd go for the latter.

Of course it depends a bit on where you sail - crossing the channel in fog is a bit more hazardous than pottering up East Coast creeks

 

[Stork_III]

I am pretty sure that there are no legal requirements for safety equipment on a boat your size.

If you want one then the options are really either the Firedell/Echomax permanently mounted or a fold-flat octahedral hoist when you need it. Since in practice you are highly unlikely to need it then I'd go for the latter.

Of course it depends a bit on where you sail - crossing the channel in fog is a bit more hazardous than pottering up East Coast creeks

Solas V specifies the legal requirement for small craft <150T. Not onerous. http://www.rya.org.uk/infoadvice/regssafety/pleasurecraftregs/Pages/SOLASV.aspx

 

[bedouin]

Solas V specifies the legal requirement for small craft <150T. Not onerous. http://www.rya.org.uk/infoadvice/regssafety/pleasurecraftregs/Pages/SOLASV.aspx

I believe there is no requirement to retro-fit to small vessels - so assuming the boat was built before Solas V came into force that part technically does not apply.

But to be honest it is common sense

 

[Stork_III]

I believe there is no requirement to retro-fit to small vessels - so assuming the boat was built before Solas V came into force that part technically does not apply.

But to be honest it is common sense

Other than Radar reflector, "if possible" there is nothing to retro fit. Carry copy of Life Saving signals, passage plan when applicable, duty to assist in distress can all, and must be, complied with. Age of vessel is immaterial, to my reading anyway.

 

[prv]

I believe there is no requirement to retro-fit to small vessels - so assuming the boat was built before Solas V came into force that part technically does not apply.

Do you have any basis for that belief?

I did read the legislation fairly thoroughly a couple of years ago (in furtherance of some forum argument or other ), and I don't remember seeing anything about only applying to new-build vessels. I wasn't specifically looking for such, so I could be wrong, but it'll take more than wishful thinking and "stands to reason" to convince me.

On Kindred Spirit we had one of the 2" tube reflectors attached to the (wooden) mast. No idea if it did any good, but I suspect not really.

On Ariam we inherited a Visiball at the masthead. Probably better than the 2" tube, but I still wouldn't assume everyone can see me.

But in both cases a reasonable effort at complying with the law - if I really needed to be visible to shipping I'd get an Echomax or Seame. As it is I have an AIS receiver (and a pair of eyes) and take my own actions to avoid collision.

Pete

 

[maby]

We have a tubular reflector that is permanently hoisted on one of the flag halyards. I have to say that I do sometimes look up at it - about a metre long - hanging next to a much thicker aluminium mast that is 15m high (probably more) and wonder how much it adds to my radar signature.

 

[Stork_III]

We have a tubular reflector that is permanently hoisted on one of the flag halyards. I have to say that I do sometimes look up at it - about a metre long - hanging next to a much thicker aluminium mast that is 15m high (probably more) and wonder how much it adds to my radar signature.

If you look at post 9, extract from the Quinetiq Report, you will see that under test they are found to useless.

 

[maby]

If you look at post 9, extract from the Quinetiq Report, you will see that under test they are found to useless.

The trouble with that Qinetiq report is that it only measures the radar signatures of the reflectors. Mine, like most yachts, is hanging off a ruddy great lump of aluminium - it would be interesting to know if any reflector actually adds significantly to the signature of your mast.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

The trouble with that Qinetiq report is that it only measures the radar signatures of the reflectors. Mine, like most yachts, is hanging off a ruddy great lump of aluminium - it would be interesting to know if any reflector actually adds significantly to the signature of your mast.

Problem is that your aluminium mast is a convex surface in every direction, like a convex mirror. So, it scatters radar rather than sending it back the way it came. A properly designed passive radar reflector sends a large proportion of the energy falling on it back the way it came. The snag is that they only work properly if a) they are big enough, b) they are accurate enough and c) they are in the correct orientation. The Qinetiq reports shows a) that most aren't big enough, and ones big enough aren't practical on a yacht, b) that there are questions about their accuracy, which may or may not be OK on manufacture but banging around at the top of a mast isn't going to improve them, and c) they are unlikely to be at the correct orientation on a heeling yacht; this last being exacerbated by misuse of octahedral reflectors (which should be in the "catch rain" orientation, not point up).

For those who know about radar, I know this is a simplification!

An active system (Seame or EchoMaster) receives the incoming radar pulse, amplifies it and sends it back. So it can be much smaller than a passive reflector, does not depend on an accurate construction. and is less affected by orientation problems.

 

[bedouin]

Do you have any basis for that belief?

I did read the legislation fairly thoroughly a couple of years ago (in furtherance of some forum argument or other ), and I don't remember seeing anything about only applying to new-build vessels. I wasn't specifically looking for such, so I could be wrong, but it'll take more than wishful thinking and "stands to reason" to convince me.

On Kindred Spirit we had one of the 2" tube reflectors attached to the (wooden) mast. No idea if it did any good, but I suspect not really.

On Ariam we inherited a Visiball at the masthead. Probably better than the 2" tube, but I still wouldn't assume everyone can see me.

But in both cases a reasonable effort at complying with the law - if I really needed to be visible to shipping I'd get an Echomax or Seame. As it is I have an AIS receiver (and a pair of eyes) and take my own actions to avoid collision.

Pete

This came up about the time that the rules came into force - I seem to remember that MCA admitted that there was no legal obligation to retro-fit to existing vessels - check Solas V/19 1.1 - clearly states the changes only apply to vessels constructed after July 2002.

Also note that to comply with the regulation you have to fit a radar reflector that works in both bands - and (again IIRC) none of the reflectors commonly available for yachts so it is not "practical" to comply. Note also according to the letter of the legislation you are not required to fit a smaller one if you cannot comply with the obligation.

So while every responsible body correctly advises that we "should" fit the largest practical radar reflector it is not technically a legal obligation (at least for boats < 13.9 m)