Radar – is it worth it on a 40 year old 30 footer?

[Sandy]

Radar is not just useful when weather is bad.

True, but as part of the decision making process, sorry if this sounds a bit geeky, but I am an engineer, understanding the sort of weather parameters that you have set yourself will allow the potential purchaser to consider the value that they would get from the kit. If we don't go out in anything greater than a F4 and only if it is sunny then it is unlikely to add any value.

I will caveat my posting by stating that I do have an a very old Raython on board that is used once in a blue moon to see if it still works. Which reminds me I need to lubricate the whirrly thing.

 

[Daydream believer]

:encouragement:

Solo I consider it pretty much vital onboard for offshore passages so you can get some sleep, :

If you mean that an alarm will sound when you are being painted by another radar then one might as well get an Echomax active radar reflector. However I have one & have the alarm deactivated because if I want 10 mins kip in the English Channel, S North Sea, or most coastal UK waters for that matter, (agree not offshore as you state) the alarm is going off so often I would never get a moments peace.
What other use would it be whilst you were asleep?

 

[alant]

True, but as part of the decision making process, sorry if this sounds a bit geeky, but I am an engineer, understanding the sort of weather parameters that you have set yourself will allow the potential purchaser to consider the value that they would get from the kit. If we don't go out in anything greater than a F4 and only if it is sunny then it is unlikely to add any value.

I will caveat my posting by stating that I do have an a very old Raython on board that is used once in a blue moon to see if it still works. Which reminds me I need to lubricate the whirrly thing.

Lots of us are "engineers".

 

[Babylon]

My LCD screen Furuno is independent of the chart-plotter (for good reason, especially as the CP, complete with AIS, now frequently goes on the blink in bouncy water and I still can't find anything wrong with its 12v wiring!). The radar only takes two minutes to warm up - and if you're going to need to use it you're surely going to know well in advance of that!

I fitted it because I had previously had experience of crewing a charter yacht in very thick fog in mid-Channel. Hearing ships' engines when you can't see the bow of the 36 footer you're on is a formative experience to say the least.

I have used it in anger several times. The first was four hours into a Channel crossing, when the forecast 'light fog patches' suddenly became much thicker and more blanket-like. My chum was keen to get to Cherbourg and argumentative (he wasn't much of a sailor, more of an ignorant trophy-collector). Two minutes after turning it on, the screen showed a steady march of Titans coming out of the East. I'd recently done the RYA radar course and had my chinagraph pencils plotting the first targets at regular intervals. Despite pressure from my (now ex-) chum, I considered myself single-handing but also responsible for more than just myself (chum's fourteen-year old son was also on board), so I turned around and set a course for Poole.

Its subsequent use has been in the Channel: practicing ship avoidance in mock fog conditions, and when closing land (Portland harbour, the Needles) etc in fog or heavy rain before I fitted the (unreliable) chart-plotter.

It adds nothing to the financial value of my 36 year old 27 footer (nor does the stern-pole gimballed radome-mount, nor do the scores of refurbishments and improvements I've also done over the last decade), but she'll continue to be my boat for years to come so who cares!

Your call.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

I'm pondering the value of radar myself. My boat is a moderately elderly 32ft and I am a moderately elderly 68 yrs so value per year is important. However having set of from Scillies to Ushant in windy weather and and then been blanketed in fog for 20hrs was scary and I woke the navigator so we could have both of us on lookout when we crossed the french shipping lane, I can see its use. Of course the big ships have AIS but on the return leg which was also foggy (but calmer) we saw one fishing boat on AIS and then sailed through a fleet of 20 with some turning on their AIS when we were a cable length away (and still invisible)
Radar would have given us a safer and less tense time and I guess the fishing boats had it. The problem is power consumption and cost. 20 hours at 18 watts would kill my battery if engine not on, and its not £1300 but nearer £2000 if I need to change chart plotter

 

[GrahamM376]

20 hours at 18 watts would kill my battery if engine not on,

In practice, the current draw is nothing like that if you use standby most of the time there's nothing close and then have a quick scan every 10 mins or so.

 

[JohnDL]

In practice, the current draw is nothing like that if you use standby most of the time there's nothing close and then have a quick scan every 10 mins or so.

That's what I would plan to do, an automatic scan at regular intervals if away from shore power for more than a few days, even with a modern broadband.

The good news is there do seem to be some deals around at the moment and I am hopeful of being able to do it for closer to £2k than £3k even with a pole mount.

 

[Skylark]

Lots of us are "engineers".

I’m sure that an engineer would fit radar without quibble. It’s an essential piece of kit with many uses. I don’t get the value for money or age of boat argument. Why buy a boat in the first place? When at sea it’s best to stack the cards in your favour as it’s no respecter of cost or age. Within the “all available means” thinking radar is an invaluable piece of hardware from the armoury.

Of any system on my boat, I find radar the hardest to use / interpret, albeit chart overlay makes things easier. It takes a lot of practice to figure out and maintain a reasonable level of skill with its use.

 

[johnalison]

Of any system on my boat, I find radar the hardest to use / interpret, albeit chart overlay makes things easier. It takes a lot of practice to figure out and maintain a reasonable level of skill with its use.

I've only had radar since 2000, initially B&W and now integrated. I haven't found it hard to use. Although my use is not sophisticated, I often fill the time on a dull motoring passage by playing with it, especially fiddling with the controls to detect the most distant or smallest object such as birds. My collision avoidance is not sophisticated - I put a range marker and EBL on a target and follow it from there, but this is at least a lot better than nothing. AIS is easier for those targets that show up but is not really a substitute for radar.

I would say that in my usage radar has been indispensible on about four or five occasions, when I would otherwise have either been scared, returned to port, or not set out. For example, we once sailed Ijmuiden and encountered moderate fog as it was getting dark. This lasted for about three hours, during which we were able to continue motoring in the full knowledge that there were no vessels causing a risk. True, we might have ht a floating object, but that would have been the same in the dark anyway.

 

[JohnDL]

I’m sure that an engineer would fit radar without quibble. It’s an essential piece of kit with many uses. I don’t get the value for money or age of boat argument. Why buy a boat in the first place? When at sea it’s best to stack the cards in your favour as it’s no respecter of cost or age. Within the “all available means” thinking radar is an invaluable piece of hardware from the armoury.

Of any system on my boat, I find radar the hardest to use / interpret, albeit chart overlay makes things easier. It takes a lot of practice to figure out and maintain a reasonable level of skill with its use.

We managed without radar (and GPS etc.) for years so in my view "essential" is a little strong but it is a very valuable aid. And no I am not a luddite and have and use a lot of technology on the boat - not surprisingly for an ex IT Director.

I will almost certainly fit one but economics / cost do need to be taken into account, my 40 year old boat is now in superb condition, very well equipped with almost all of the gear less than 3 years old, anything more I spend on it is effectively going to be written off, it might make it a bit easier to sell but it should sell easily anyway when the time comes. I am already an o.a.p. so the chances are I will have to give up at least longer distance single handed sailing sometime in the next 5 - 10 years.

So the question was, is radar worth (say) between £600 a year as a worst case and perhaps £250 as a best case.

At £250 a year it would have been a no-brainer, at £600 a year I thought it would be useful to check on other peoples experience as I have not used a modern broadband radar. Being a cup half full type I am in negotiation to purchase.

By the way I was an engineer, this is the last radar I worked on professionally, just a tad to big to fit on a boat at >60 tons just for the aerial, with 12 transmitters feeding it putting out between 5MW and 8MW EACH depending on frequency

 

[lw395]

.... The problem is power consumption and cost. 20 hours at 18 watts would kill my battery if engine not on, and its not £1300 but nearer £2000 if I need to change chart plotter

18W is 1.5A at 12V. If you're going to spend four figures on radar, you can afford an extra battery of more than enough capacity to cover a channel crossing.
But 18W is just the radar, I think the display/plotter is going to be another 30W typically?

But my experience is:
The majority of yacht owners with radar are rubbish at using it for collision avoidance in fog
Most owners don't practice with the radar in fine weather
Keeping an effective radar watch without another person on watch is really quite hard. Having the display below decks doesn't help, but having it on deck is not great in rain and weather either. There are times when a yacht with a pilot house suddenly seems like the obvious answer you've been missing.

I came close to buying myself a radar after a stressful channel crossing after waiting a couple of days for a gap in the fog.
Having got back to Devon we sat in a certain YC and read a few magazines. We found one with a good article about the few yachts which had managed to collide with ships in the past 20 years in the Channel and North Sea. Most of those that got hit had radar.

I decided I would leave the two grand in the building society and use it to get a ferry home, take an extra few days off work or whatever to avoid fog.

 

[lw395]

....

By the way I was an engineer, this is the last radar I worked on professionally, just a tad to big to fit on a boat at >60 tons just for the aerial, with 12 transmitters feeding it putting out between 5MW and 8MW EACH depending on frequency

View attachment 68137

That makes a Plessey 461 or a Watchman seem handy, portable and modern!

 

[john_morris_uk]

By the way I was an engineer, this is the last radar I worked on professionally, just a tad to big to fit on a boat at >60 tons just for the aerial, with 12 transmitters feeding it putting out between 5MW and 8MW EACH depending on frequency

View attachment 68137

We used to have one very much like that at the Royal Radar Establishment, Malvern. In the sector towards the hills and the houses and people on them it was automatically disabled. You used to feel warm if you walked in front of it. (Not sure that did you any good and you weren't encouraged to try it at all. Looking back, I wonder how much damage I did to myself... hopefully none but I wouldn't dream of allowing myself to be irradiated by such high power nowadays.)

I thought the one we had was called "Blue Yeoman" and was in S Band. I know that its range was limited by curvature of the earth and height of aircraft but we could easily 'see' aircraft beyond Paris (over 400 miles away.)

 

[JohnDL]

We used to have one very much like that at the Royal Radar Establishment, Malvern. In the sector towards the hills and the houses and people on them it was automatically disabled. You used to feel warm if you walked in front of it. (Not sure that did you any good and you weren't encouraged to try it at all. Looking back, I wonder how much damage I did to myself... hopefully none but I wouldn't dream of allowing myself to be irradiated by such high power nowadays.)

I thought the one we had was called "Blue Yeoman" and was in S Band. I know that its range was limited by curvature of the earth and height of aircraft but we could easily 'see' aircraft beyond Paris (over 400 miles away.)

Blue yeoman was the project name for this Radar. OnlY 3 were built compete -you would not miss the 3 story building holding the electronics. The Malvern one would have been a part built experimental prototype. The production version had a prf of 250 / s limiting range to a bit over 250 miles.

Having worked on things like is why I would not put a 4Kw Radar on a pole.

 

[Prasutigus]

...I would not put a 4Kw Radar on a pole.

Greetings.
Why not exactly? Umpteen thousands of yachts have such arrangements; surely if it was genuinely harmful, then it wouldn't be so popular?
I hope you can put me right, but I don't think there is any evidence of any yacht radar hurting anybody, ever.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Blue yeoman was the project name for this Radar. OnlY 3 were built compete -you would not miss the 3 story building holding. The electronics. The Malvern one would have been a part built experimental prototype. The production version had a prf of 250 / s limiting range to a bit over 250 miles.
.

Its small world then. I didn't work in that department, but as a young scientific officer with an enquiring mind and friends in various departments all over the site, I got to wonder round and ask questions. I think it was expected of me and I certainly remember wondering in to the Blue Yeoman buildings and looking at the displays and asking questions.

In the section/department I was assigned to, I certainly got lots of very obtuse questions directed at me about phase measurement techniques of microwave noise sidebands on various microwave sources. I also remember that the maths became quite challenging - one of the reasons I realised a good degree would be a good idea and resigned to go and read electronics before I realised philosophy and theology was the way ahead.

Apologies to drift the thread with my personal reminiscences.

 

[JohnDL]

Greetings.
Why not exactly? Umpteen thousands of yachts have such arrangements; surely if it was genuinely harmful, then it wouldn't be so popular?

That is a non-sequitur, drink and drugs are popular that does not make them safe - although I indulge in the former but not the latter.

I hope you can put me right, but I don't think there is any evidence of any yacht radar hurting anybody, ever?

How would we know that the a specific brain cancer was caused by a yacht radar?

I would not use a 4Kw radar on a pole for a number of reasons:

I am, perhaps, a cautious old f@rt who was, in my youth, lectured time and again by people who knew their business that electro magnetic and particularly microwave radiation is dangerous and should be avoided - and not just because of the super high powered radar (I think the most powerful "S" Band ever produced but I could be wrong) shown above.

The majority of pole mounted radars probably contravene the makers recommendation, something like "the radar dome be mounted out of range of personnel (horizontal beam width above head height)...." then look at the specs and the diagrams and you will see that the beam goes c 12.5 degrees below horizontal (for a Garmin 18HD) , the manuals show this from a mast location when it would conform to ANSI safety rules, but if you plot the same angles from an aft mounted c 2m pole you will find that anyone standing, or even sitting, in the cockpit will be in the beam and outside of the safety arc.

The affect of micro-wave radiation on the human body is not fully understood and "safety" limits are, like a lot of other limits, rather arbitrary, possibly even a WAG - a Wild Arse Guess. The impact of pulsed radiation is even less well understood.

Remember all the fuss about mobile phones (and microwave cookers) ? A lot of that was bunkum but some was not and manufactures quickly introduced new technology to reduce the risk (and more importantly to them - extend battery life?), largely by backing off from the few watts of power used to hundreds of milliW or less where practical. A 4 Kw pulse at a higher frequency down a narrow beamwith, is potentially far more dangerous than a mobile phone ever was.

So, if I had to use a 4Kw pulse radar I would put it up the mast where the vast majority of such radars are positioned, but I am reasonably comfortable with putting a 40W system on a pole.

 

[JohnDL]

In the section/department I was assigned to, I certainly got lots of very obtuse questions directed at me about phase measurement techniques of microwave noise sidebands on various microwave sources.
Apologies to drift the thread with my personal reminiscences.

They may well have been referring to the associated and rather secret RX12874 Passive detection system (PD) see http://www.radarpages.co.uk/mob/linesman/pd.htm

 

[BabySharkDooDooDooDooDoo]

I'd suggest a 2kw unit should be more than sufficient

 

[JohnDL]

I'd suggest a 2kw unit should be more than sufficient

Quite so at perhaps half the risk, but so is a 40W broad band at even less risk, albeit at a rather higher cost.