Bosun Higgs
N/A
You are meaning angle on the rudder not the wheel arent you? I'll have to measure that
racing - windward speed help
- Thread starter Bosun Higgs
- Start date
You are meaning angle on the rudder not the wheel arent you? I'll have to measure that
flaming
Well-known member
Yes, normally measured whilst the boat is ashore.
Robin
Well-known member
Which implies you sheet the genny to a certain point and then sail to it. But what is that point? Do you trim to where it touches the spreaders?
I always helm by the tell tales. I take your point about skippering - just a bit nervous of anyone else helming my P and J in the starting melee.
NO NO NO! That has just shut the door completely on the airflow between the genoa and the main. How far off the spreaders will depend on the conditions at the time, note at the time not on the day because in the lulls you will need to ease the genoa sheets off, but 2-3 inches seems about right. Then you can steer to the telltales but fastest is often with the windward ones just lifting. That said the telltales are not so good when the genoa has some rolls in, even with others at the 'reef' points, probably to do with the rolled edge mucking with the airflow to them. Seat of the pants 'feel' is called for then. The main can (should) be backwinding a bit when let down the traveller, but don't overdue that except temporarily in gusts or the slot gets closed again.
Twister_Ken
Well-known member
Get out there, sail the boat upwind in various conditions. Every time you go out note everything you can; fairlead positions, how tightly sheeted (mark the sheets), halyard tensions, cunningham (fit one), clew position, backstay tension, traveller on the track, windspeed, and the resulting speed through the water and apparent wind angle. Then change one thing, and see whether it makes you go slower or faster and point higher or lower. Optimise that, then work on another control. Eventually, you'll have 'settings' noted down that will let you sail at optimum STW and AWA in a variety of conditions. If you have a VMG to windward option on your instruments, it helps.
Well, you did say you hate losing.
fireball
New member
Er - no - I don't race the big boat - just dinghies - where unless it is blowing dogs off chains the JIB is pulled in to the desired point and cleated off - the helm then sails to that - the faster guys probably do it differently and don't cleat the jib - but then I've found I'm hunting for the right angle to what is being steered and the helm is hunting for the right angle for the jib - a circular reference!! Oh - I don't have a compass onboard the dinghy either - so can't sail to that!
Heh - I know what you mean ... I crewed for Dad in his boat - so no issue - I just balanced the boat and called the time up till the start gun - well - last 30 seconds I'd be calling out a bit more - even got the whole fleet OCS in one race because we were early and it was round the ends for restart ... no thanks!!I always helm by the tell tales. I take your point about skippering - just a bit nervous of anyone else helming my P and J in the starting melee.
GruffT
New member
Sailing Logic (http://www.sailinglogic.co.uk/racing.htm) are a "racing school" amongst other things. They have a "Skippers" course and other specialist courses through the year (upwind trim, kite handling etc) in addition to general instruction & experience as part of a crew for an event. Nice bunch and fast boats.
No connection other than satisfied customer.
Bosun Higgs
N/A
Phoned them earlier on this afternoon Gruff!
Robin
Well-known member
Another thought. We assume you are talking about pure boatspeed here when hard on the wind rather than effective VMG overall to the windward mark because first one there wins usually. VMG brings in other factors like tack speed and speed recovery after a tack and tacking on windshifts and staying in clear air and..
GruffT
New member
Another thought - the North U book on Trim is a great resource too - and cheaper than a coaching session!
http://www.aladdinscaveshop.co.uk/north-u-trim-book-4909-p.asp
(NB not particularly recommending this shop - just ID'ing the book)
Bosun Higgs
N/A
yes, pure boat speed / pointing. By the time we got to the beats yesterday, there was a fair bit of space between the 14 boats in the fleet - we are handicap racing and the speed range is maybe 15%. We didnt tack on windshifts and I'm non too sure that with our tacking speed it would be worthwhile unless the shifts were fairly big and fairly long term. We dont tack on a sixpence.
I take care to go smoothly through a tack rather than simply put the wheel hard over. If I dont, the guys on the winches complain!
dt4134
New member
If a 31.7 is more controllable to windward when you're overpressed you've really got trouble. They probably rounded up when the main trimmer scratched his nose or blinked or otherwise lost concentration for half a second.
Flaming's already explained about rudder angle. No need to look for why you were slow as the rudder angle explains it.
What posters have said about the head sail causing weather helm should be taken seriously even though it might be non-intuitive to cruising sailors. What others have said about getting (or using if you already have it) a smaller and flatter cut headsail is good advice. A part rolled genny is a nightmare and would have really added to the heeling forces.
As others have said you need the main as flat as possible. I'd have gone for the draft a bit further forward, so a cunningham will be a really good investment. It's not hard to fit you just need a strong point at deck level to attach it and a cringle just above the tack. Apart from that it's simply a block & tackle with a jammer. Mastman usually gets the short straw for adjusting it. Train him to do it by leaning in from the rail so that he keeps as much weight out as possible.
Other than that, play the main, so down track whenever there's a gust. Transfer responsibility for keeping the boat on track to windward from the helmsman to the main trimmer, so that if you're starting to round up use the main not the wheel to correct. That way you can keep going with the optimum 5 degrees rudder angle.
The other thing to look at is twist when things get worse. If you're overpowered you need more twist, even if the upper leech is flapping. Try a looser kicker in heavy airs so that when the main is eased the boom goes up rather than out and the main twists off and helps keep the boat on its feet.
dt4134
New member
Try measuring how much you loose each tack in boat lengths. Two is fine, five is poor, more is bad, but maybe given you're racing a heavy cruiser you can accept worse. Still most times you'll gain significantly using windshifts. Try calculating it, you'll surprised at the results.
OK, you can train to tack more efficiently but many boats lose most coming out of the tack. They don't focus on accelerating out of the tack so oversheet and take much longer to get up to speed.
With a fin keeled boat you go to windward better when you're moving faster, so bear off slightly after the tack, ease the main slightly, don't sheet in the last inch or two of genny sheet until you're getting back up towards you close-hauled speed then you can go close-hauled and flatten the sails. The little extra belly and twist in the sails coming out of the tack helps you accelerate.
Robin
Well-known member
Yes because tacking on the shifts and keeping your air clear of turbulence from other boats is worth several degrees of pointing whilst staying on the one tack. Training the crew in tacking has got to be important, first in getting the headsail around and the mainsail track readjusted but most importantly to allow as said above speed to build on the new tack before hardening right up.
Twister_Ken
Well-known member
You''re never going to get silverware like that. I used to race a Swan 411, 12 tons, massive genoa, and we'd tack on every header. We got silverware. And as someone else said, always look for clean air. Sailing in dirt is for losers.
fireball
New member
And I bet that was just for eating the lunch on the rail ....
Twister_Ken
Well-known member
And I bet that was just for eating the lunch on the rail ....
No, the silver was replaced by paper plates when the boat was in race mode.
fireball
New member
Oh blimey - one of those racers ... where you're allowed 5ml of water per crew member and 1 square of toilet paper - shared - all to save weight!!
Still makes me laugh when people down the ranks do similar things - trying to tune their rigs to the nth degree and put all the 'go faster gear' on ... when actually just sailing the damm thing properly would help far more ....
I suppose if I got out and did some practice I could get better - but it's just fun for me ...
Still makes me laugh when people down the ranks do similar things - trying to tune their rigs to the nth degree and put all the 'go faster gear' on ... when actually just sailing the damm thing properly would help far more ....
I suppose if I got out and did some practice I could get better - but it's just fun for me ...
Twister_Ken
Well-known member
Oh blimey - one of those racers ... where you're allowed 5ml of water per crew member and 1 square of toilet paper - shared - all to save weight!!
Still makes me laugh when people down the ranks do similar things - trying to tune their rigs to the nth degree and put all the 'go faster gear' on ... when actually just sailing the damm thing properly would help far more ....
I suppose if I got out and did some practice I could get better - but it's just fun for me ...
Toilet paper? Cissy!
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
"Illustrated Sail and Rig Tuning", Ivar Dedekam, Fernhurst Books
Bosun_Higgs before you hire anyone purchase and read "Illustrated Sail and Rig Tuning", Ivar Dedekam, Fernhurst Books, ISBN 1 898660 67 0.
This book is written in a style that makes it very easy to understand. The left column of each page is text and the right a graphic showing what the text is describing.
The text is also laid out in many instances in an ranked objective list format i.e. do this, then do that, now twiddle this. It is intuitive and takes away any interpretation by the reader of what the author means.
The book also describes all the sail settings and trim controls, again using graphics, for various wind speeds and sea states, defines the differences between fractional and masthead sail trim control.
Oh and it also tells you how to set up your standing rigging (fractional or masthead), deals with Spinnaker and Gennekar setting as well and provides "Rules of Thumb" to get you into the groove fast.
You could have the book in one hand, helm in the other while shouting setting instructions to your crew, its that intuitive. A good book that i would recommend to anyone who wants to understand sail trim. A no nonsense book.
Did you know that there are 3 possible flying positions for genoa tell tales to provide the correct power depending on the conditions? Similarly the number of "fist" gaps between the genoa and spreader is condition dependant.
I would bet that you will learn more in an afternoon reading this book than an afternoon on the water with a paid hand.
Good luck and I hope the competition can read your port of registration (at a distance).
BlowingOldBoots
Bosun_Higgs before you hire anyone purchase and read "Illustrated Sail and Rig Tuning", Ivar Dedekam, Fernhurst Books, ISBN 1 898660 67 0.
This book is written in a style that makes it very easy to understand. The left column of each page is text and the right a graphic showing what the text is describing.
The text is also laid out in many instances in an ranked objective list format i.e. do this, then do that, now twiddle this. It is intuitive and takes away any interpretation by the reader of what the author means.
The book also describes all the sail settings and trim controls, again using graphics, for various wind speeds and sea states, defines the differences between fractional and masthead sail trim control.
Oh and it also tells you how to set up your standing rigging (fractional or masthead), deals with Spinnaker and Gennekar setting as well and provides "Rules of Thumb" to get you into the groove fast.
You could have the book in one hand, helm in the other while shouting setting instructions to your crew, its that intuitive. A good book that i would recommend to anyone who wants to understand sail trim. A no nonsense book.
Did you know that there are 3 possible flying positions for genoa tell tales to provide the correct power depending on the conditions? Similarly the number of "fist" gaps between the genoa and spreader is condition dependant.
I would bet that you will learn more in an afternoon reading this book than an afternoon on the water with a paid hand.
Good luck and I hope the competition can read your port of registration (at a distance).
BlowingOldBoots
snowleopard
Active member
Your profile doesn't say what your boat is but as a general rule the newer the boat the more upright it should be sailed (because of modern wide hull profiles).