Question About Life rafts

[RobWard]

I've moved my boat to NW England from where I hope to go cruising to Ireland, IoM, N Wales and West coast of Scotland - no more (I'll be quite pleased with that, in fact!) My liferaft is now at the end of its days - 2002 - so I *think* it's due for replacement. I'm currently considering whether to go for a lightweight model that can be stowed anywhere and deployed easily, or a 'gold standard' canister model that would have to be stowed on the pushpit. The boat is a Bav 30, so 31' LOA - I'm wondering how obtrusive the pushpit option is, whether that weight at the back would have any adverse effect on performance or manoeuvring, or whether indeed I need one at all? Thoughts?,

 

[Tranona]

Presumably you are thinking of the Lalizas product. Not sure it has gained any traction in the market. You are (almost) never going to ned to deploy and if you do (almost) certainly it will be in circumstances where you will be glad you opted for the "proper" ISO type.

It is always a challenge to know where and how to stow it if you do decide to have one and don't own one of the few boats with designed in stowage. When I carried one on my Bavaria to comply with licencing requirements it was well hidden in a cockpit locker, where it stayed except for its horrendously expensive annual service, for 15 years. Did not have one on my second Bavaria. Pushpit mounts suit some boats, but not so good on yours for the reasons you mention so if you want it accessible on deck then between the hatch garage and the mast is the least worse place.

Your last question is the most important one and that is a personal decision.

 

[dunedin]

I've moved my boat to NW England from where I hope to go cruising to Ireland, IoM, N Wales and West coast of Scotland .......... or whether indeed I need one at all? Thoughts?,

I think the need or otherwise for a liferaft may depend on where you sail.

But the NW of Scotland is very different from the Solent. In many places, if you hit something hard (and I know people who have) or have a fire, you can be on your own for a long time.

I was first responder to a Mayday in the relatively busy and near to civilisation Inner Sound, east of Raasay. But even then it was nearly an hour before the lifeboat arrived (from Portree). The only other vessel in the vicinity, a small commercial vessel on which I could see a rescue RIB which could have saved a life, ignored the Mayday on Ch16 entirely and sailed past (and bizarrely, the Coastguard didn't call them to assist, even though clearly visible to them on AIS and I pointed out to them that as I was solo and had 2m draft I could not go into the shallows to rescue the kayaker from the rocks).

On the West side of the Outer Hebrides, if could be 4 hours or more before a lifeboat arrived, as I don't think there area any on that side, and only a few passages from E to W (which can be difficult, even for the lifeboats, in serious weather). In good weather, close to a regular route (eg to/from St Kilda), you might be lucky and a fast trip boat may be able to come to your aid. But often can sail and see no other boats at all.
Hence I like to have a liferaft in these waters, even though verry unlikely to need it. Make sure only go for 24 hour pack, not the offshore, to reduce 3 year servicing costs.

A good dinghy pumped up could be a reasonable alternative - ideally for these waters stored on stern davits to facilitate going ashore. But that could be challenging on a 30 footer.

Great waters, I am sure you will enjoy your new cruising grounds,

 

[KeelsonGraham]

You are (almost) never going to ned to deploy and if you do (almost) certainly it will be in circumstances where you will be glad you opted for the "proper" ISO type.

Absolutely!

 

[Daydream believer]

I do not know how your Bavaria cockpit is set up. I have a 31 ft Hanse & I have tiller steering with a traveller for the mainsheet. As I have to step over the traveller I reckoned that I may as well step over the life raft. It does make a handy shelf for noatebook ,charts & gloves etc.
I have a seago & I did not find it overly expensive. 3 year services are reduced by 25% by registering on purchase. I have a local supplier who I can drop in to & they arrange sending/collection to Seago for me at £25-00 total.
In this position it is easy to slip over the stern & is well protected from damage on the pushpit.
I also note that these things are heavy. Getting a carrier bagged one out of a locker in a hurry might be a lot more difficult than one might expect. I would further suggest having one on the cabin top as a very bad idea.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

From a probability perspective, on a well found boat, navigated with all due consideration and following the intent of SOLAS V, plus the limited amount of times most leisure yachts get used, you will never need one. It boils down to consequences of being in the ogin without one, for whatever reason.

I sail in the same areas, leisure sailor, fair weather. When my old one had to be retired I replaced it. My logic was the going down with the boat would involve significant emotional and financial hassle for those left behind. The latter issue would potentially impact any insurance payout or pension payments to my wife (I don't always sail with my wife) as proving death becomes that much harder if the body is not recovered, so it would add another layer of stress. Also, I sail with friends and colleagues quite often, so was it fair to expose them to risk that has a degree of control by owning a liferaft? The last part of my decision process was based on affordability, can I afford a new liferaft. The answer to that was, yes. I bought a new liferaft.

There is more than one way to skin a cat, dinghies on davits, dinghies inflated on deck or towed, are all reasonable solutions for that very rare event that your boat sinks.

 

[jwilson]

Re weight of liferaft: adrenaline assists strength considerably. Statistics on yacht crews recovered from liferafts on coastal passages very very thin indeed on the ground. Unless a major fire or you hit an offshore rock and sink rapidly you are most unlikely to deploy a liferaft. If you hit coastal rocks with an onshore wind a liferaft will just get as just smashed as the yacht.

Not arguing against liferafts - but I'd delay spending money on one until money had been spent on ensuring reliable systems on boat - sails, engine, nav gear etc.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

On my Moody 31 I moved my liferaft from the pushpit to the cabin roof, because the weight and leverage of the liferaft on the pushpit caused the pin holding the forward end of the pushpit down to wear the hole through which it passed so that the pushpit started to move. A heavy liferaft imposes quite significant stresses on the pushpit, and if the mounting system has any weak point, it will find it.

 

[doug748]

Saw one of these over the summer and was impressed with how handy it looked in it's valise:

Waypoint 4 Person Coastal Single Tube Valise Liferaft

You will find one cheaper than that though.

If you don't carry a tender on deck may well be worth considering. Cannister liferafts are a big boat/big crew solution in my view.

 

[Tranona]

The Lalizas one which is similar is much the same price - both more expensive than a Seago Cruiser ISO 2 4 man.

Little evidence that such a thing has ever been used effectively in real life in UK waters. But then as noted in post#9 there is very little evidence of any use of liferafts by Yachts in UK waters at all, particularly in recent years after a bit of a flurry in the 1990s and 2000s.

 

[Daydream believer]

On my Moody 31 I moved my liferaft from the pushpit to the cabin roof, because the weight and leverage of the liferaft on the pushpit caused the pin holding the forward end of the pushpit down to wear the hole through which it passed so that the pushpit started to move. A heavy liferaft imposes quite significant stresses on the pushpit, and if the mounting system has any weak point, it will find it.

I thought about that & realised that, on my boat, the hatch garage & electronics mounting, is fixed with only 6 screws. Any decent wave would not only strip the liferaft away, it would take the hatch garage with it. that would make it impossible to seal the cabin.
I further realised that a liferaft on the cabin top is a massive block to one's view. (Another reason why I do not have one of those silly tents)
Your point about weight in the stern is quite valid though. One only has to look at modern designs to see how much storage there is in the aft end of the boat to wonder if it is going to drag its stern. I agree there is extra width, but gear seems to be moving aft.

 

[awol]

My logic was the going down with the boat would involve significant emotional and financial hassle for those left behind. The latter issue would potentially impact any insurance payout or pension payments to my wife (I don't always sail with my wife) as proving death becomes that much harder if the body is not recovered, so it would add another layer of stress.

You could consider that death may not be presumed for 7 years after your disappearance so 7 years full pension (assuming you are already of pensionable age) followed by the life insurance payout may be financially beneficial to your "relic". Just arrange an enduring power of attorney (Setting up power of attorney) before you go sailing but that does require a degree of trust that your wife doesn't cash in the lot while you are away.

 

[fisherman]

I do not know how your Bavaria cockpit is set up. I have a 31 ft Hanse & I have tiller steering with a traveller for the mainsheet. As I have to step over the traveller I reckoned that I may as well step over the life raft. It does make a handy shelf for noatebook ,charts & gloves etc.
I have a seago & I did not find it overly expensive. 3 year services are reduced by 25% by registering on purchase. I have a local supplier who I can drop in to & they arrange sending/collection to Seago for me at £25-00 total.
In this position it is easy to slip over the stern & is well protected from damage on the pushpit.
I also note that these things are heavy. Getting a carrier bagged one out of a locker in a hurry might be a lot more difficult than one might expect. I would further suggest having one on the cabin top as a very bad idea.
View attachment 164303

I think you would have some jolly fun getting that out in a hurry, wet, dark, rough. They are awkward enough to handle.
My bro used to rely on a part inflated Avon on deck, when he did abandon he never got to it, very quick fire/explosion.
In any case it should be remembered that many of the 35,000 seamen lost in WW2 died of exposure. In a closed down raft the atmosphere reaches saturation after 20 minutes and you stop losing heat to evaporation. If you need one, then you do, but you can't guess that one.

 

[Praxinoscope]

Saw one of these over the summer and was impressed with how handy it looked in it's valise:

Waypoint 4 Person Coastal Single Tube Valise Liferaft

You will find one cheaper than that though.

If you don't carry a tender on deck may well be worth considering. Cannister liferafts are a big boat/big crew solution in my view.

As this is advertised at a price at least £100 more than a two tube Seago life raft I think I would go for the two tube everytime.

 

[Stooriefit]

A well equipped boat should have many items which hopefully never have to be used. If you ever need to step up into a life raft you'll be glad you spent the money on one. As has been said by Dunedin sailing in Scottish waters does suggest going to more remote areas. I sail there and am always glad of my life raft being on board. Its not just hitting something that you have to consider - even well serviced sea cocks and prop shafts can cause major water ingress. If you sail with plenty of crew you might not have any major problem dealing with such but if you sail one or two up you'll struggle. At the end of the day it is an individual decision.

 

[Daydream believer]

You could consider that death may not be presumed for 7 years after your disappearance so 7 years full pension (assuming you are already of pensionable age)

Thread drift here.
Is that correct? If they do not recover the body, you are not presumed dead for 7 years.

That could be a good reason to stop wearing the LJ & not clipping on. In fact I might even wear some lead diver's weights whilst I am at it. My pension is on my life only & when I go the wife only has a small pension along with a % of my state pension, plus our savings. But if she can still claim my pension for 7 years she will be rolling in it - Job done.

 

[Tranona]

A well equipped boat should have many items which hopefully never have to be used. If you ever need to step up into a life raft you'll be glad you spent the money on one. As has been said by Dunedin sailing in Scottish waters does suggest going to more remote areas. I sail there and am always glad of my life raft being on board. Its not just hitting something that you have to consider - even well serviced sea cocks and prop shafts can cause major water ingress. If you sail with plenty of crew you might not have any major problem dealing with such but if you sail one or two up you'll struggle. At the end of the day it is an individual decision.

Have you seen any evidence of people needing to take to a liferaft in Scottish waters because of failed seacocks or shaft seals causing the boat to sink? Why should being in remote areas make such an event more likely? I appreciate that assistance is perhaps less prompt.

One can imagine all sorts of things that might happen - particularly negative ones, but do they actually happen?

 

[awol]

That could be a good reason to stop wearing the LJ & not clipping on. In fact I might even wear some lead diver's weights whilst I am at it.

I have been led to believe that hypothermia is preferable to drowning. So wear the lifejacket, keep a half-bottle of 40 proof in your pocket to bring the blood to the surface and you will probably discard the lifejacket as you get euphoric towards the end.

 

[awol]

Have you seen any evidence of people needing to take to a liferaft in Scottish waters because of failed seacocks or shaft seals causing the boat to sink? Why should being in remote areas make such an event more likely? I appreciate that assistance is perhaps less prompt.

One can imagine all sorts of things that might happen - particularly negative ones, but do they actually happen?

We have orcas up here - it's only time!

 

[Wansworth]

Wear tall sea boots,thick jumper,Harris tweed coat,shin length oilskin and sou’wester……..go down with your ship in style