sailorman
Well-Known Member
correct both counts but we dont drive very powerful boats with 100s hp
qualifications
- Thread starter robertj
- Start date
correct both counts but we dont drive very powerful boats with 100s hp
Ubergeekian
Well-Known Member
Well, up to a point. One thing that transitioning showed me in stark contrast was just how incredibly sloppy the BGA (British Gliding Association) system had been. On my gliders ADs (Airworthiness Directives) had been missed or ignored, but passed by inspectors. The official BGA list of ADs had numerous errors and several omissions - including perhaps the most important AD yet issued. My last BGA CofA was issued for a "Glasflügel Standard Cirrus": my glider is not a Standard Cirrus and Glasflügel didn't make them anyway.
Standards under BGA depended wholly on the goodwill, expertise and honesty of individual inspectors, and I have seen the results of deficits in all of these. As far as airworthiness is concerned there may be a little more paperwork than before, but I am confident that there will be a significant improvement in standards as a result.
Then there's licensing. The BGA has been introducing ever more complicated and tangled rules over the years, often in response to safety panics based on very dubious evidence - but nobody argues with safety. Getting a Silver C (equivalent of a pilot's licence) nowadays requires far more hoops than it did when I acquired mine a mere fifteen years ago - with no perceptible result on accident rates and a plummetting in the number of pilots in the UK. Cross country endorsements to a qualification which, ten years ago, was all you needed to fly cross country. Medical certificates which mean practically nothing but add cost and hassle. And so on.
I believe from another post that you're a BGA instructor. I have met and flown with some truly excellent instructors, and I shall always be grateful to them for their kindness, selflessness, enthusiasm and dedication. I have also met and flown with some duds. I have flown with instructors who hadn't the slightest idea how to teach and I have flown with at least one instructor whose flying instructions were actively dangerous. "Pull back more, you'll get another few feet" he said at the top of a winch launch site check. In a Puchacz. Which was already in pre-stall buffett. At a site which had had a Puchacz spin in, fatally, off the wire two weeks earlier. That was a large and well-known site which I considered so sloppy and dangerous in its practice that I gave up flying there after half a day, despite having towed the glider several hundred miles to fly there.
And ... relax...
Yes, I know that there were keen and dedicated people at all levels in the BGA, and that the creation of an entire voluntary/non-governmental airworthiness and certification authority was a remarkable achievement. Sadly, though, I think the BGA's glory days were over well before my AEI flight in 1992.
Glider manufacturers over Europe have been on the edge or going under for years. Grob RIP. Rolladen-Schneider RIP. DG would have been dead had a rich businessman not been determined to get the plane (DG800, I think) he had ordered when they went bust.
Why the trouble? Three main reasons, I think, and nothing to do with European legislation - which is, let's face it, no more onerous than German and French (only professionals can rig French gliders) pilots have had for years.
1. Glass gliders last for ever. As a result, prices of second hand ones have tumbled, and it's now possible to buy very respectable glass performance for under £10k. The market is only fed from the top end, and there simply aren't that many people willing to spent five times as much on a new glider. This is exactly the same as sailing, of course. Most of the GRP Corribees and Jousters and Leisure 17s and Arden 4's and Parker 21s and Hunter 19s are still out there and going for peanuts: the market for new sub-25' sailing yachts is all but dead and the market for sub-35' boats is dying too. Look at what you can get for £30k these days. How many people want to spend three or four times as much for a shinier boat the same length?
2. Modern designs are winning. Historically the Germans built the best gliders. Beautifully and massively designed by brilliant Akaflieg alumni (I did some work with the Karlsruhe and Darmstadt Akafliegs, and they were a very impressive bunch) and then hand build by skilled German labour. At a cost. oh dear me, at a cost. And now, other countries are doing things differently. The Poles always built entertaining gliders - now they are kicking German @rse with stunning designs which perform better, weigh less and cost far less. Yup, SZD is doing to DG and Schleicher almost exactly the same as Bavaria did to Westerly, Victoria and Sadler.
3. Gliding is dying. Everywhere in Europe, for year after year, the number of pilots has shrunk. There just aren't as many people wanting gliders any more, and of those more and more can meet their needs by buying secondhand (1, above), or cheap (2). Every club in Britain has trailers with semi- or fully- abandoned gliders in them. My club got a good airworthy Ka-7 (non pilots, that's an old but respectable two-seat trainer) for free, just by asking around.
I agree completely. I fear, though, that the BGA offers a dire object lesson to the RYA. They spent years telling government that gliding was only safe if pilots followed more and more onerous rules - so it's hardly surprising that government eventually agreed with them. This is why I worry that the RYA is overdoing the need for even voluntary licensing ... governments love regulation and they love doing regulation.
I remain implacably imposed to any form of mandatory licensing for any form of activity on open waters whatsoever.
And (again) ... relax ...
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Sailfree
Well-Known Member
This is a stupid debate. The whole issue will be determined by some future EU directive that will be interpreted in an exact and detailed manner by UK civil servants and we can then repeat the fiasco of the UK motorcycle test where many training centres have had to close at they cannot complete the swerve test at a speed in Kms that has little relevance to UK situation!
Just stop and consider if our opinions count for nothing with the UK government why should any EU legislator bother.
It will be what it will be.
deep denial
Well-Known Member
Every 6 months??? more like every 6 minutes!
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Whilst I agree it is a stupid debate, I am not sure any change will be driven by the EU. So far the EU has not got involved in anything to do with shipping registration, safety or competence issues. These currently derive from the UN convention and there is a whole structure in place that deals with these issues on an international basis. Any deviation from the UN requirements (ie the ICC) is on a state by state and in some states like Australia at an even lower level. Even the CEVNI requirements derive from navigation authorities rather than states or the EU.
Any change in the UK is more likely to be driven by a high profile incident, or as with the drink issue wrapped up in legislation covering other areas. It is difficult to see at present anything on the horizon that would prompt such moves - even from the most bored politicians and civil servants.
Delivery Skipper
Active Member
Anyone care to Argue
Surely no one believes it is OK to go to the boatshow with cheque book in hand purchase SunFair Prince 40 and go staight out with no more knowledge than a motorist.Because believe it or not thats how it is at the moment .And ive seen it happen .
Delivery skipper
www.keenmarine.co.uk
Surely no one believes it is OK to go to the boatshow with cheque book in hand purchase SunFair Prince 40 and go staight out with no more knowledge than a motorist.Because believe it or not thats how it is at the moment .And ive seen it happen .
Delivery skipper
www.keenmarine.co.uk
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Of course, anything can happen, but the number of people who do what you say is tiny and they learn pretty quickly that they either need to find out what it is all about or they give up. There is no credible evidence that such people are any more likely to cause harm to themselves or others than anybody else. Lots of anecdote but no hard evidence. Have a look at the official accounts such as the MAIB reports and the MCA or RNLI statistics and you rarely find lack of basic competence as a contributory factor to incidents.
It is really no different from somebody passing a test in Fiesta and that legally qualifies them to drive a Ferrari 430. So, even if you set a basic test there is still nothing to stop somebody buying a boat beyond their current capability. However in reality most boat buyers are intelligent people and develop their skills according to their boating ambitions.
Ludd
Well-Known Member
2008 I sailed as crew on a yacht from Ireland to Spain.I have no tickets.
Skipper /owner had day skipper,wife competent crew,both gained in the Solent
Neither had a clue,and I was left singlehanding.Halfway we had a furling m/sail problem in 36 knots wind moderate swell.Skipper wouldn't go out on deck,so I fixed it.Asked him to heave to and he did not understand what I meant!.
There was not ONE book about sailing or navigation on board(I brought my own chart and almanac).
This couple are now in the Med advertising for charter---he obviously did some sort of course last winter,as he claims MCA /RYA STATUS.
And,Mr Deliveryskipper ,he's advertising his services as a----delivery skipper.
Delivery Skipper
Active Member
Answer not needed
Hi Tranona
Answer to your post really not needed as you pointed out he did undertake training and obtained basic qualification i.e. Fiesta licence
Delivery Skipper
www.keenmarine.co.uk
Hi Tranona
Answer to your post really not needed as you pointed out he did undertake training and obtained basic qualification i.e. Fiesta licence
Delivery Skipper
www.keenmarine.co.uk
Delivery Skipper
Active Member
Always check
THanks for PM. this goes to enforce that we should always ask for references and actually check them before we hand over keys to one of our most valued possesions
Regards Delivery Skipper
www.keenmarine.co.uk
2008 I sailed as crew on a yacht from Ireland to Spain.I have no tickets.
Skipper /owner had day skipper,wife competent crew,both gained in the Solent
Neither had a clue,and I was left singlehanding.Halfway we had a furling m/sail problem in 36 knots wind moderate swell.Skipper wouldn't go out on deck,so I fixed it.Asked him to heave to and he did not understand what I meant!.
There was not ONE book about sailing or navigation on board(I brought my own chart and almanac).
This couple are now in the Med advertising for charter---he obviously did some sort of course last winter,as he claims MCA /RYA STATUS.
And,Mr Deliveryskipper ,he's advertising his services as a----delivery skipper.
THanks for PM. this goes to enforce that we should always ask for references and actually check them before we hand over keys to one of our most valued possesions
Regards Delivery Skipper
www.keenmarine.co.uk
Blueboatman
Well-Known Member
Just reading 'TEN YEARS ON-BRITAIN WITHOUT THE EUROPEAN UNION' (Amazon or freebie if you were to sign up to, say, UKIP..)
Quite sad to realise just how much authority the UK governments have ceded to European law makers..
I am sure Europe will be delighted one day to legislate not just on qualifications for yachting, but the position of the loo, size of drivers seat and CE stamp for the tiller..
Quite sad to realise just how much authority the UK governments have ceded to European law makers..
I am sure Europe will be delighted one day to legislate not just on qualifications for yachting, but the position of the loo, size of drivers seat and CE stamp for the tiller..
Mrs Sea Mist II
Well-Known Member
When I did my Competent Crew and my husband did his Day Skipper Practical we both worked really hard and we felt we deserved to pass. On the same course there were two people who had no sailing experience prior to the course. One passed Competent Crew, even though he couldn't tie a knot to save his life, the other passed his Day Skipper, despite having a great deal of help with the navigation element. We felt quite strongly that the exam we had just passed was meaningless.
sailorman
Well-Known Member
Quite So
we learnt with friends sailing from Ramsholt 40 yrs ago, no quals.
its all these days about skools making money. there was a time when a sail skool was just that. these days its a w/e charter with a bit-o-paper @ the end. some dont even get past Landguard
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planteater
Well-Known Member
Good point. I've never heard any official body ever suggest the idea of mandatory leisure boat handling qualifications (or lifejacket use in England). These ideas seem to be the preserve of boating forums.
Either way, I'm good. I've got the bits of paper (and the LJ's).
webcraft
Well-Known Member
They are not exams. You were not examined. You recieved a course completion certificate.
-W
Ubergeekian
Well-Known Member
It's stupid, but quite legal and long may it remain so.
I was equally horrified, by the way, by an article about Sailtime in an recent PBO. Apparently they are quite happy to let complete newbies go swanning around in 38 foot sailing boats with no more experience than a cheap Day Skipper course. Eek. It's only the Solent, but even so it seems rather unwise.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
You clearly read only what you want to read. The point is that the difference between a test in a Fiesta and the skills required to operate a Ferrari is just as great as the difference between what is required for an ICC and what is required to operate a high speed powerboat.
So, where do you set the level you think is necessary before you allow somebody to exercise his perfectly legal right to buy a boat?
Your argument might have some validity if you could show that lack of formal testing has resulted in harm - but there isn't any so you have a half baked solution looking for a non-existent problem.
Sybarite
Well-Known Member
Making something compulsory involves drawing up a database.
Once you have a database you have a potential for taxation.
Do you not pay enough for your hobby already?
John
Once you have a database you have a potential for taxation.
Do you not pay enough for your hobby already?
John
Searush
Well-Known Member
My first experience of sailing a cabin boat was on a charter out of Mylor. I had no qualifications & only dinghy experience. I took my family (wife & kids age 4 & 8).
I had to take an employee of the company out for a half day cruise to prove I could sail. He showed me how to put the sails up & start the engine & then proceeded to snooze in the corner of the cockpit. We went out & round Black Rock & back to the mooring. I expressed concern about picking up moorings, so he said "practice it". After we had picked it up & cast it off several times, he said anything else? & left us to it, happy we knew what we were doing.
It was a great confidence boost & we had a great holiday; all the stuff I had read about. I was able to put into practice, & living on board ws such a buzz I bought my own boat the following year.
My point is - one doesn't need qualifications, but one does need common sense, a willingness to learn, to ask questions & to read & research. And to build on what one does know bit by bit.
I had to take an employee of the company out for a half day cruise to prove I could sail. He showed me how to put the sails up & start the engine & then proceeded to snooze in the corner of the cockpit. We went out & round Black Rock & back to the mooring. I expressed concern about picking up moorings, so he said "practice it". After we had picked it up & cast it off several times, he said anything else? & left us to it, happy we knew what we were doing.
It was a great confidence boost & we had a great holiday; all the stuff I had read about. I was able to put into practice, & living on board ws such a buzz I bought my own boat the following year.
My point is - one doesn't need qualifications, but one does need common sense, a willingness to learn, to ask questions & to read & research. And to build on what one does know bit by bit.
webcraft
Well-Known Member
.
I agree Searush - you don't need qualifications, but you do need a good teacher initially and a willingness to learn - which you obviously have in spades - otherwise learning entirely from your own mistakes can be a long and hard road.
I don't understand why so many on here are so keen to slag off sailing schools. Most RYA instructors are reasonable teachers with a lot of sailing experience who are keen to pass on their knowledge. Very few are in it to make money; sailing schools come and go with a terrible regularity and it is certainly not a goldmine.
Some of us are fortunate and have good teachers and don't need sailing schools. I learnt to sail cruisers with a friend on his Moody 33S Mk1 and he didn't have any formal qualifications. I later did a Day Skipper course only because I wanted to charter myself and that was a 'ticket' that would let me do it. Later I helped my mate sail his Moody down to the Canaries when he moved there. I learned a lot on that trip as well.
A few years later and he and I both got our yachtmaster qualifications a year apart because we both realised that we did not know everything. He did a FastTrack when he retired, I did Coastal Skipper then YM and now I occasionally instruct as a Cruising Instructor - and I learn a lot doing that.
I don't want to see qualifications become compulsory, but I think they will. The people who worry me are not the ones who don't want instruction, it is the ones who don't seem to want to learn or improve at all, the ones who are convinced they are 'natural born seamen'. I have met them while instructing and they are a menace.
- W
I agree Searush - you don't need qualifications, but you do need a good teacher initially and a willingness to learn - which you obviously have in spades - otherwise learning entirely from your own mistakes can be a long and hard road.
I don't understand why so many on here are so keen to slag off sailing schools. Most RYA instructors are reasonable teachers with a lot of sailing experience who are keen to pass on their knowledge. Very few are in it to make money; sailing schools come and go with a terrible regularity and it is certainly not a goldmine.
Some of us are fortunate and have good teachers and don't need sailing schools. I learnt to sail cruisers with a friend on his Moody 33S Mk1 and he didn't have any formal qualifications. I later did a Day Skipper course only because I wanted to charter myself and that was a 'ticket' that would let me do it. Later I helped my mate sail his Moody down to the Canaries when he moved there. I learned a lot on that trip as well.
A few years later and he and I both got our yachtmaster qualifications a year apart because we both realised that we did not know everything. He did a FastTrack when he retired, I did Coastal Skipper then YM and now I occasionally instruct as a Cruising Instructor - and I learn a lot doing that.
I don't want to see qualifications become compulsory, but I think they will. The people who worry me are not the ones who don't want instruction, it is the ones who don't seem to want to learn or improve at all, the ones who are convinced they are 'natural born seamen'. I have met them while instructing and they are a menace.
- W
