Qualifications for boaters.

[Serin]

If you feel inadequate you have the option of taking training courses & 'getting 'qualified' up to the eyeballs

Pity about the gratuitous, implied insult to people who do choose to take courses. I suspect there are very few of us who cannot learn something from other experienced sailors, however however long and broad our own experience may be. This is especially true of people who spend most of their lives as skipper of their own small boat with a family crew. Different ships, different long splices - and sometimes better long splices, too.

 

[Robin]

Pity about the gratuitous, implied insult to people who do choose to take courses. I suspect there are very few of us who cannot learn something from other experienced sailors, however however long and broad our own experience may be. This is especially true of people who spend most of their lives as skipper of their own small boat with a family crew. Different ships, different long splices - and sometimes better long splices, too.

That is an incorrect read of the comment IMO which does not decry anyone choosing voluntary education. The original post however was about making testing and licensing compulsory, a topic the OP clearly favours as can be observed in his replies in other threads. I notice also that the OP has seemingly taken his leave from this thread having initially poked the wasp nest. Do Trolls eat wasps?

 

[Serin]

That is an incorrect read of the comment IMO which does not decry anyone choosing voluntary education.

I disagree. I think the comment was pretty fatuous, but I also think that arrogance is no less a problem than ignorance when it comes to boats and the sea.

Like you I noticed the absence of the OP after the first post and commented on it. I suppose this is a reliable topic for a troll, judging by the number of times it crops up, but it's also an interesting one. I would like to see the original proposition defended and debated, or, at least, some of the reasoning behind set out.

A related topic is, of course, the one of mandatory equipment - SOLAS and beyond. Many countries require one or the other and some both. That's an interesting one as well.

 

[Robin]

I disagree. I think the comment was pretty fatuous, but I also think that arrogance is no less a problem than ignorance when it comes to boats and the sea.

Like you I noticed the absence of the OP after the first post and commented on it. I suppose this is a reliable topic for a troll, judging by the number of times it crops up, but it's also an interesting one. I would like to see the original proposition defended and debated, or, at least, some of the reasoning behind set out.

A related topic is, of course, the one of mandatory equipment - SOLAS and beyond. Many countries require one or the other and some both. That's an interesting one as well.

I now live where mandatory stuff is needed and in fact we had a ( voluntary) USCG inspection 8 weeks ago to make sure we complied, which of course we did and we have a pretty USCG 'pass' decal stuck on the mast to prove it (and another on our RIB tender in davits which they considered to be a separate vessel). This subject is too broad for thread drift so why not start another thread??

 

[Serin]

I now live where mandatory stuff is needed and in fact we had a ( voluntary) USCG inspection 8 weeks ago to make sure we complied, which of course we did and we have a pretty USCG 'pass' decal stuck on the mast to prove it (and another on our RIB tender in davits which they considered to be a separate vessel). This subject is too broad for thread drift so why not start another thread??

I expect someone will if they are interested (and no-one picks up your drift! ) BTW I suspect you and I both may have learned a lot in the early parts of sailing careers from some of the same skippers. Like you, I was sailing with the OYC in my teens and have happy memories of the Theodora. The Duet is still to be seen on the east coast. Lovely old yawl.......

Right! No more drift! :encouragement:

 

[Robin]

I expect someone will if they are interested (and no-one picks up your drift! ) BTW I suspect you and I both may have learned a lot in the early parts of sailing careers from some of the same skippers. Like you, I was sailing with the OYC in my teens and have happy memories of the Theodora. The Duet is still to be seen on the east coast. Lovely old yawl.......

Right! No more drift! :encouragement:

We saw Duet a few times in Southern Brittany with the Courtauld's family on board including watching her being neatly parked alongside in the outer marina at Camaret very skilfully too considering her size and large front prodder. Last I heard of Theodora was her being restored in Helford.

 

[Serin]

We saw Duet a few times in Southern Brittany with the Courtauld's family on board including watching her being neatly parked alongside in the outer marina at Camaret very skilfully too considering her size and large front prodder. Last I heard of Theodora was her being restored in Helford.

Restoration completed (at Gweek Quay) and she has been restored to original name - Kindly Light. Could there possibly be a finer name for a pilot cutter?

 

[Seven Spades]

Lies damed lies and statistics. I think if you look at the stats for RTA's you will find that the police will quote 16% of deaths are alcohol related. However if you then change the limit you will change the percentage. So without any additional accidents the problem goes from small to huge. In other words the figures are a nonsense, we define drunk at 80mg but in Scotland it is 50 if we changed the limit to 180 no deaths would be alcohol related. What we don't know is if any of those 16% died because of alcohol consumption, the chances are that very few, we already know that 84% are nothing to do with alcohol, you could look at how many deaths involved left handed drivers. If you take 84% out of the 16% you end up with 2.56% which is probably the number of deaths that were caused by alcohol.

The point I am making is this, that you can show anything you like with statistics but it might not change anything implementing a compulsory qualification is unlikely to have any measurable difference. The number of boat related deaths each year can normally be counted on one hand, then if you look more deaply and try to work out how better training would have changed anything...

There is no economic benefit to implementing such a policy, if you have money to spend you could probably save more lives each year by reducing ambulance response times. Lives saved per £ spent would be far greater.

 

[Mctavish]

And how is having a licence going to prevent that any more than it prevents people (motorcyclists, BMW drivers - pick your hate group) from speeding on public roads?
Creating an offence is the first step then detection and enforcement - how are you going to do that?

Do you think that if motorcyclists and BMW drivers were driving without a licence and no formal driving education necessary for the licence, the standard of their driving would be the same or better than it is now?

 

[Seven Spades]

Do you think that if motorcyclists and BMW drivers were driving without a licence and no formal driving education necessary for the licence, the standard of their driving would be the same or better than it is now?

It's irrelevant. Lots of people are killed on the road and lots of people are killed by other people on the road. In boats hardly anyone dies and even fewer(if any) are killed by other boaters.

 

[steve yates]

It's a bit apples and oranges really is it not? Sailing round the Solent vs sailing round the med.?
Surely the latter may seem less hectic not because of qualifications, but because it's a about a million square miles bigger

 

[Tranona]

Do you think that if motorcyclists and BMW drivers were driving without a licence and no formal driving education necessary for the licence, the standard of their driving would be the same or better than it is now?

Motorcyclistics in particular are subject to much more extensive - was going to say rigorous, but not being a motorcyclist myself I would not know- than any other private road user but still some speed and have accidents.

However, to an extent such comparisons are irrelevant other than to show that compulsory qualifications do not eliminate either accidents or deviant behaviour. The same is true of light aircraft as has already been mentioned.

There seems to be three strands to the "justification" for compulsory training and licencing. First that leisure sailors don't know, don't understand, or ignore Col Regs. Given that ignoring them is already an offence, the fact that there are so few prosecutions suggests that, although irritating to some it is not a significant cause of dangerous incidents. Second that damage and deaths are caused by poor seamanship (in the widest sense). Again there is limited evidence that this is the case, either through the number of reported accidents or the cost of claims for damages to property. Third is that somebody can buy a big powerful boat and drive it without a licence (and speed so causing wash etc). Again, there is little evidence that suggests this is a real problem, either in terms of accidents or insurance claims. As already suggested speeding happens independent of licencing.

Others have had a poke at the value of statistics, quite rightly. A much better approach is to analyse what data there is on accidents and try to find common themes. If you do this through the MAIB reports and the data collected in the drink investigations, you find that the majority involve a very small subset of the boating population, namely small powerboats and RIBs - unsurprisingly you find exactly the same in the USA where they collect much more extensive data. You will note that this is an area where the RYA is making extra effort to improve standards of training and education. As an aside there have been virtually no incidents with an MAIB report that have involved large MOBOs!

So, actually the data that is available supports the self regulating approach, which is perhaps why it is supported by RYA, RNLI and MCA - all of whom might see potential financial benefit from a regime of compulsory licencing.

 

[Iliade]

America's holy cow it the gun; Britain's holy cow is the right to sail a boat/lilo/jetski on both days of summer.

 

[NormanS]

It might be worth considering bringing in compulsory boating paper qualifications, some time after paper qualifications are required for bringing children into the world.

 

[KellysEye]

Jane and I've got a dinghy sailing certificate from a Sunsail club in Greece when Jane and I went with my son. We chartered yachts two or three times a year for over 20 years from places ranging from the Seychelles to the Bahamas and just about everything in between. including Croatia, Turkey, Greece, Malta, Corsica and Sardinia, the Balearics and the Caribbean from Puerto Rico to Grenada. We did most of those three or four times. The we went long distance sailing for six and a half years.

I would recommend a dinghy certificate because it the quickest way to learn to sail. Then you just need to build experience to move the next steps, for example when chartering we had three gales and stopped worrying about them.

 

[southseaian]

This is one of those "groundhog" threads that recur frequently and have done for many years. What I never see on such threads, though, is any attempt by the OPs and those brave souls who take a similar view to respond coherently to the questions raised by other posters or, indeed, discuss the issue at all. This thread is no exception.

I am interested in the general view on this topic. I was asking if now is the time to look at idea of some type of licence or requirement for compulsory training.
Accidents are common especially involving RIBs.
Yes freedom for all boat users is a fine ideal but at what cost.
Anyway the subject is obviously interesting to forum contributors.

 

[Serin]

I am interested in the general view on this topic. I was asking if now is the time to look at idea of some type of licence or requirement for compulsory training.
Accidents are common especially involving RIBs.
Yes freedom for all boat users is a fine ideal but at what cost.
Anyway the subject is obviously interesting to forum contributors.

Cost? Do you have any significant statistics to expand on "what cost"? Are you concerned about the costs of establishing compulsory training? Are you interested in actual evidence for and against such a proposition? Have you any comments about any of the points and issues other posters have raised?

It's certainly of interest and most posters (as well as the RNLI, RYA etc.) oppose the idea. It would be good to see a reasoned argument in favour. Do you have such an argument?

 

[Tranona]

I am interested in the general view on this topic. I was asking if now is the time to look at idea of some type of licence or requirement for compulsory training.
Accidents are common especially involving RIBs.
Yes freedom for all boat users is a fine ideal but at what cost.
Anyway the subject is obviously interesting to forum contributors.

That is the point I made earlier. The accidents and poor behaviour is limited to a very small subset of water users and efforts have been made to address this. The Milligan accident (and the 2 on the last year in the Solent, one only 2 weeks ago) should have brought the issue of the dangers of RIBS and other small fast boats. However, both Mr and Mrs Milligan were "qualified", in the sense of the level of training that they had undertaken way above what would be a reasonable minimum, but still made a mistake with horrendous consequences.

While it makes some sense to concentrate on encouraging training for these types of craft, and jet skis etc there is not a case for wider application of licencing. As many posters here have commented the overall level of accidents and damage is very low and rarely does an inquest or an MAIB report (or indeed RNLI or MCA reports) suggest that accidents could have been avoided by extra training or caused by incompetence.

I also referred to the campaign for drink boating laws where there was moral and political pressure being applied, but careful analysis clearly showed the number of boating accidents where alcohol was a significant causal factor was tiny. This fact together with the cost and difficulty of application and enforcement of arbitrary limits killed the idea. Exactly the same arguments would apply to compulsory training and licencing. There does not appear to be a "problem" to solve so compulsion with all the cost implications is simply not needed.

 

[pmagowan]

This does seem to be a bit of a troll. The OP does not seem interested in arguing his case. It is simply a matter of drop s controversial topic on everyone and then stir it from time to time. Many people have given very well thought through comments as to why the original proposition is foolish but there has been no defense of it other than a 'something should be done' generalisation. It would be interesting if this was a debate but it is not.

 

[Lakesailor]

I am interested in the general view on this topic. I was asking if now is the time to look at idea of some type of licence or requirement for compulsory training.
Accidents are common especially involving RIBs.
Yes freedom for all boat users is a fine ideal but at what cost.
Anyway the subject is obviously interesting to forum contributors.

Interesting to you as an increasing income stream as you are

an RYA Yachtmaster Instructor. I've spent the last 15 years instructing sailing, motor boating and navigation on the South Coast of England.