Purchase without broker

[Tintin]

I may be about to shell out some hard earnt cash on a new (to me) boat.

It is a private sale so no broker involved.

The yacht is from 1987. It is over £ 20k.

I will have a survey and my offer is subject to survey.

I guess i should lay down a refundable deposit of 10%, but should this be to the sellers solicitors client account or via an escrow service? If the latter, any recommendations?

Is there a standard contract to use, and where would i get it from?

And how do i check if vat has been paid?

 

[skip50]

The RYA certainly used to have a contract for just this purpose-a private sale. Don't know if they still do-but I used it about 20 years ago. Checked the RYA website, there is a contract there as a PDF, you do have to be a member.

VAT-ask to see the original receipt/document.

Don't know about deposit, cannot remember what I did 20 years ago!

Have fun

 

[xyachtdave]

My first thought was a £1k deposit would be more than enough to let the seller know you're serious.

10% sounds a lot.

 

[alteredoutlook]

The RYA do (or did?) a booklet explaining everything about buying a new or secondhand boat and within it there is a contract you can copy for your purchase

 

[Brightwork]

A large part of a broker's costs is advertising and accompanied visits. (in fact it's a killer that set's the lowest level that they will deal with).

If you are in the 'Willing buyer/ Willing seller bracket, why not just ask one of the local independent brokers what he will charge just to do the 'formalities'. You may be pleasantly surprised. I used to do it frequently. It won't be anything like 8%!

You will be rebuffed several times by pretentious brokers - sod em, keep looking.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

I guess i should lay down a refundable deposit of 10%, but should this be to the sellers solicitors client account or via an escrow service? If the latter, any recommendations?

Is there a standard contract to use, and where would i get it from?

And how do i check if vat has been paid?

no need to make any sort of deposit and I never have done when buying privtely. The RYA have a standardcontract available to members. If you dont know a member, pm me and I'll send you a copy of one I have used.

 

[jonic]

A large part of a broker's costs is advertising and accompanied visits. (in fact it's a killer that set's the lowest level that they will deal with).

If you are in the 'Willing buyer/ Willing seller bracket, why not just ask one of the local independent brokers what he will charge just to do the 'formalities'. You may be pleasantly surprised. I used to do it frequently. It won't be anything like 8%!

You will be rebuffed several times by pretentios brokers - sod em, keep looking.

Here is some useful info on VAT and the sequence of events used by a broker http://www.jryachts.com/buyers-guide
http://www.jryachts.com/vat-and-rcd

and there you will also find contact details for what Brightwork is describing.

 

[Spyro]

RYA CONTRACT
http://www.rya.org.uk/sitecollectio...dvice/Buying New/BMF STOCK BOAT AGREEMENT.pdf

But this one seams simpler

http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/sellingyourboat.php3?section=contract

There are plenty online just google boat sale contract

 

[prv]

RYA CONTRACT
http://www.rya.org.uk/sitecollectio...dvice/Buying New/BMF STOCK BOAT AGREEMENT.pdf

But this one seams simpler

http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/sellingyourboat.php3?section=contract

I think the first is a contract, the second is a bill of sale. Rather different things.

Pete

 

[AndrewB]

Definitely, go with the RYA contract. I insisted when buying privately some years and never regretted it as it saw us through a couple of sticky patches in the deal.

If you are not using a broker the trickiest thing is to ascertain that the yacht is truly the 'unencumbered' property of the seller. If the yacht is Part I registered then a search for any outstanding mortgages or debts secured against the yacht is straightforward; but if its Part III (SSR) then you need to make discrete enquiries.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

That RYA contract appears to be for purchase from a business rather than a private seller and I'd put red ink all over it anyway - there's loads of dodgy aspects such as they only recommend 3 days after the sea trial/survey to reject the boat and it has to be a positive act of rejection rather than rejection being assumed until the sale is agreed. The agreement is terminated upon resale to a third party - why on earth is that there? If you had a claim under this agreement against the seller you'd potentially be prevented from selling the boat on. 3.3 requires you pay 50% up front for any modifications - what happens if you want something fixed because you feel it's not right but its not clear cut as to whether it's actually not working as intended - say the deck is flexing or excessive water coming down into the bilges on a deck-stepped mast, an engine that's running 3-400 rpm below max revs at WOT?

At best I'd say this is written on behalf of the seller rather than the buyer, especially in today's market. I don't expect the seller to give up his protection but, aside from not being very well written, if I was the buyer I'd feel this was weighted far to far towards the seller, especially in the current marketplace.

 

[AndrewB]

That RYA contract appears to be for purchase from a business rather than a private seller and I'd put red ink all over it anyway.

Think you may be looking at the wrong version. The one to which the link is shown in Spyro's post is quite different from the one in the RYA's "Buying A Second-Hand Yacht" (G21). The latter is definitely intended for a private sale, and can be downloaded from the 'member's only' section of the RYA website.

I would strongly recommend the OP buys the above booklet (it costs about £6) which is a far more comprehensive account of the potential pitfalls of buying privately than is likely to get posted here.

 

[Bobc]

Do you have to worry about VAT certificates at that age?

 

[jwilson]

Do you have to worry about VAT certificates at that age?

Theoretically, yes, in practice not that much.

VAT in the UK came in in April 1973, so any boat built and sold new after that date should have a moth-eaten bit of paper with it showing that the very first owner paid his VAT (The original rate was 10%). However, most such tattered scraps of paper have by now been lost or thrown away as the boat will probably have changed hands five or ten times.

There is a "get-out" for boats built between 1973 and 1985, which is that if you can PROVE that the boat was built between those dates, AND that she was somewhere in the EU at the stroke of midnight on December 31st 1992, she will be "deemed VAT paid" in law even if you have lost the original VAT paperwork. It is often quite difficult to prove both those facts, so many boats in this category are also "VAT-unproven". There is a common misconception that pre-1985 or pre-1992 boats are VAT exempt, but this is not the case.

A 1987 boat should thus have VAT paperwork. If I was personally planning to buy a 1987 boat and then to cruise her widely - USA, Asia etc - and then return to the EU, then the lack of VAT paperwork might worry me a bit, though it might not stop me buying her if she was the right boat.

If all I planned to do was potter around the UK and occasionally cruise in Europe, I would register* her as a UK boat and join the tens of thousands of other boatowners who have boats with no VAT proof. Customs know that there are many such boats, and really don't care that much for low value boats. The registration can be either Part I or III (SSR): if a boat is already Part I it makes sense to retain it, but the simpler, cheaper SSR is also fine.

If you want a way to spend a few not-that-entertaining days contact HMCE and ask about yacht VAT. Depending on who you speak to you will get various different answers. Once any of them hear it is a 1987 £20,000-ish boat they tend to pass you on to someone else, or refer you to the not totally helpful http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channels...CE_CL_000289&propertyType=document#P151_19000

HMCE cannot charge you VAT on your new-to-you old used boat unless they can PROVE that it is not VAT-paid already. They cannot normally prove this, even if they dug out the 1987 VAT records from the boatbuilder - as these show only lump sums paid in VAT, with no attribution to specific hulls.

On purchase arrangements:

Others have already referred you to the correct RYA private sale agreement and at least one acceptable Bill of Sale. You can also use www.dft.gov.uk/mca/uksr-msf4705.pdf‎ which has the benefit of looking much more official.

Do not confuse the sale agreement and the Bill of Sale - you should use BOTH - again and again we as brokers find boats where the owner thinks the sale agreement is his proof of ownership - it is not, it is the Bill of Sale.