Proof of VAT on old boat

[petery]

I've bought a boat built in 1979. I have never met the previous owner - let alone all the other owners. I have no invoice copies. Yet the only advice I seem to get is that on a boat this age I have to prove it was in the UK in 1992 by producing ' receipt for mooring or dry dock fees etc etc'.

As a last resort I am told that the MCA bill of sale ( it's Part 1 registered) which shows I bought it from another UK resident 'may!!' be accepted as evidence that the VAT position only involves the UK authorities.

Has anyone had to show the French authorities this kind of proof ? Should I worry about it on a trip to France?

In registering as the new owner of the boat, I noticed that the engine had been changed 12 years ago - and foolishly I owned up giving the new make and serial number. Re-registration was declined unless had the original invoice ( 12 years ago and many owners ago) or I got a surveyor to inspect the new engine who then had to go to Lloyds or Bureau Veritas and then, for a £30 fee, they would agree to put the new engine description on the registration. Faced with several hundred pounds of fees, I finally persuaded them - after much haggling - to accept a Statutory Declaration before a Solicitor costing £5.

Two examples of b****y stupid bits of red tape for a 27' boat.

 

[Escapeii]

I'm in also the same boat as you (please excuse the pun). Our boat is home-made and was bought from the chaps who built her. During the negotiations with the broker I asked about proof of VAT payment and was given some slightly dodgy info.
Since then I have contacted the RYA and UK customs & excise, both tell me that invoices for major items of equipment (engine, mast & rigging etc.) should be sufficient to satisfy other EU countries, failing that to contact each of the countries individually to check their requirements.
All of which strikes me as rather a--e about face, as I am also told that being a British registered boat it is the UK customs and excises responsibility to ensure VAT has been paid on her. So it would seem far easier and logical if UK customs & excise simply issued a letter telling all that no VAT is due (as did before closing down the issuing office), rather than I having to contact and satisfy the individual requirements of every EU country I might visit.

The good news is that in 2 years of visiting 4 different EU countries no one (including the marinas where we have wintered her) has asked for proof of VAT payment. I dare say it might be different if I had an accident or the Douane decided to board us whilst at sea.
ps. I do carry the bill of sale with me.

 

[dickh]

I had the same hassle when I got my boat - Part 1 registered - the engine details had not been changed when a new engine was fitted. I had to get the Marina Engineer to confirm the new engine details and of course they charged me, also for changing ownership.
The renewal came through 2 weeks ago - £46 to renew for 5 years; I looked up an old article about the pro's and cons of Part 1 registered versus SSR and it was no contest - I have just sent the form to register on the SSR for 5 years and cancelled the Part 1 - all for £10. You really only need Part 1 if it is owned by a company, has a marine mortgage etc.
As I am always looking at ways of keeping my boating costs down this was an obvious way.


dickh
I'd rather be sailing...

 

[vyv_cox]

The value of having Part 1 registration is the title of this post. A boat that is registered has undergone a detailed and exhaustive search process. My registration was a requirement of the finance company and I was surprised at the levels to which the search went, including contacting every previous owner, past brokers, etc to ascertain that the boat had been legally bought and sold, no outstanding debt, VAT paid, etc. Buying a Part 1 registered boat assures an owner that everything is above board. For 10 pounds per year I think that level of assurance is good value.

In contrast, SSR proves absolutely nothing. I have recounted before how, when buying a Dart catamaran from the Laser Centre, I was offered my choice of a bucket full of SSR certificates. A non-existent boat can be registered - there are no checks.

 

[pandroid]

If a boat is shown to be in the EU before (I think) 1985, then its considered VAT paid. (I'm not sure of the actual date - there is some history here on this forum, but I couldnt find it. Someone here will know, or the VAT unit can tell you). The original registration on the Part 1 will show if you were in the EU before that date. If you know who the builder is, then he may well have original sales records too (Jeremy Rodgers did this for me on a 1978 boat, despite going bust in the meantime)
A change of engine requires a re-measurement on Part 1. Tough, but its meant for supertankers...
I've nver been approached for a VAT form in France but I keep it on the boat anyway.
IMHO the Part 1 is worth the money if you have an expensive boat and want to prove title - there's no other way. The SSL is OK, if the boat aint worth much.

 

[gtmoore]

Vyv - does that mean that a Part 1 registered vessel is deemed as being VAT paid without any other proof as this was determined at the time it was accepted on the register?

If this is the case then maybe petery doesn't have a problem?

 

[vyv_cox]

I'm no expert, but I would think that the holder of a Part 1 is either exempt, deemed VAT paid, as having proved vessel berthed in UK December 31 1992, or actually VAT paid. No doubt someone can tell us exceptions, though!

 

[petery]

Part 1 not sufficient for old boats on its own

My reading of the RYA and the Customs advice is that Part 1 registration does not imply VAT payment or exemption for an old boat without proof that the vessel was in the UK on a certain date in 1992 - and that has to be proved with documents.

 

[vyv_cox]

Re: Part 1 not sufficient for old boats on its own

I told you I'm no expert! I can only say that when my boat was registered, the authorities went to great lengths to prove the VAT status chain before granting registration status. I have always understood, perhaps wrongly, that carrying the Part 1 document covered me fully so far as French, or any other, customs/VAT requirements were concerned.

I have checked the text of the requirements and agree with you that no mention of VAT is written. However, there are several references to laws and regulations that seem to imply that the vessel should be legally entitled to be in UK, which seems to include VAT status. I agree, a bit vague unless you know the letter of the law.

 

[pandroid]

Re: Part 1 not sufficient for old boats on its own

I'm sure that Part 1 on its own is no recognition of VAT status. I carry the VAT receipt around as part of the ships papers. Part 1, with regard to VAT, merely shows that you were in the UK and liable to UK VAT.

I've read the RYA stuff on this and I have to say I was unaware of the 1992 date. I never had a VAT record for my previous (1978) boat (which was Part 1 registered), although I had a letter from the builder, so I suppose that covered it. I never showed it to anyone.