Princess P52 flybridge

[kcrane]

Carrying a penknife and toilet paper at all times, I salute your preparedness for all eventualities. I can't see that you did anything wrong in this instance as you were just checking the boat out thoroughly, but perhaps Princess would be best to install some sophisticated (and reasonably priced) CCTV systems in future, just in case.

 

[markdj]

Hi Henry

I just posted your review to the site and it is also shared to the G+ community. Many thanks

http://princessownersclub.com/new-princess-52-at-the-london-boat-show-2013/

 

[gandacle]

The galley position debate will run and run for sure but I thought the new P52 was extremely civilised. Whilst still out of my league the pricing was pretty competitive when compared to the nearest Fairline and Sunseeker have to offer.

I know it's a bit strange but I thought the old Mustang (boat version) on the side of the Sunseeker stand still looked cool after all these years. Harked back to when Poole used to turn out boats that looked fast even when stood still!

 

[henryf]

Right then, having given this some thought I've re-designed the P52 with the smallest bit of assistance from someone a tiny bit more IT savvy than my good self.

Flybridge has been flipped but in reality I'd re-work it more like the P50 / 42.

There is now a full height fridge / freezer under the flybridge steps. I've got eye level storage along the port side wall in the galley returning into the room above the sink so it forms a bit of a divide between the sofa and kitchen areas.

TV, drinks fridge etc fitted opposite the raised sofa, you'd have a free standing coffee table in front of the sofa.

I'm sure there is some tweaking to do but in principle that's how I'd want it.

Henry

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

Your flybridge stairs leave the cockpit on the starboard side, but arrive on the flybridge on the port side...

That aside, you want to be careful what you wish for - years ago I did a redesign of the V53 as a two-cabin boat, and sent it off to Princess. A couple of years later along came the V56 with a two cabin option, pretty much identical to my layout. Just sayin' ....

Cheers
Jimmy

 

[henryf]

I wouldn't be so bold as to say I'm right on this, (but you know I am ) I see the rear of the upper accommodation and the front as 2 distinct areas. The wrap around galley could almost be at home in a trawler style boat, but with that bit of Princess style and magic.

You've than got a raised lounge area which also looks down on the dining area so you can still have a conversation.

As we created the layout I got really excited. A boat you could really use in anger. Stark contrast to the disappointment I felt when viewing the 52 at London.

Henry

 

[Nick_H]

I wouldn't be so bold as to say I'm right on this, (but you know I am ) I see the rear of the upper accommodation and the front as 2 distinct areas. The wrap around galley could almost be at home in a trawler style boat, but with that bit of Princess style and magic.

You've than got a raised lounge area which also looks down on the dining area so you can still have a conversation.

As we created the layout I got really excited. A boat you could really use in anger. Stark contrast to the disappointment I felt when viewing the 52 at London.

Henry

You've made the saloon too small IMO, and the galley appliances are all on show as you enter the boat (bit trawler like as you say). I prefer the Princess layout, which I guess just shows that they can't please everyone. Why do you want to flip the flybridge?

 

[henryf]

You've made the saloon too small IMO, and the galley appliances are all on show as you enter the boat (bit trawler like as you say). I prefer the Princess layout, which I guess just shows that they can't please everyone. Why do you want to flip the flybridge?

Hi there Nick.

The saloon is actually quite a bit larger if you take the old saloon as being the small sofa. Taking away the fixed table opens up the space as does replacing the sofa with the TV / refreshment cabinet. total seating area (saloon and dining combined) has increased.

Princess do offer a fully covered galley with everything hidden behind your woodwork of choice. I wouldn't hide the microwave away as having to open a door whilst using it spoils the flow of the kitchen. I don't mind the fridge freezer panels, the large chromed handles set them off nicely. Other than that I'm happy the choice of appliances (ceramic hob etc.) wouldn't detract from the beauty of the boat.

Putting the dining area there uses up the useless floor space of the original design. You also tie in the two possible dining areas, the cockpit and the internal dining space.

Swapping the upper helm is essential. The predominant transom gate is on the port side. The starboard one requires climbing over a step and will be blocked off once you put a tender on the bathing platform / hi-lo lift. This means you will berth port side to. If the marina tell you the berth is starboard side to you reverse in meaning you're still port side to.

From the current flybridge layout you can't see your crew. The boat is easily 2 person manageable but you need to see your crew when coming alongside. Which cleat do you want me to use? When can you apply power to bring the boat alongside on the ropes and most important of all is the crew safe, still on dry land and not wedged between the boat and the pontoon. When mooring starboard side to the lower helm position has an opening window well positioned to allow clear line of sight and communication.

Henry

 

[henryf]

Just to remind you of the old layout :

Henry

 

[henryf]

and the revised one :

Henry

 

[Hurricane]

Your changes haven't done anything for me, Henry
I think you are trying to spec your existing boat which you obviously love.
The P52 is about a making a change away from the old layouts - and IMO it works.
My SWMBO doesn't like the galley on the accomodation deck - she thinks the galley is a social place as well as the saloon.
Hence our last boat and this one having galleys in the living spaces.

Swapping the upper helm is essential. The predominant transom gate is on the port side. The starboard one requires climbing over a step and will be blocked off once you put a tender on the bathing platform / hi-lo lift. This means you will berth port side to. If the marina tell you the berth is starboard side to you reverse in meaning you're still port side to.

From the current flybridge layout you can't see your crew. The boat is easily 2 person manageable but you need to see your crew when coming alongside. Which cleat do you want me to use? When can you apply power to bring the boat alongside on the ropes and most important of all is the crew safe, still on dry land and not wedged between the boat and the pontoon. When mooring starboard side to the lower helm position has an opening window well positioned to allow clear line of sight and communication.

Henry

IMO, Henry this is rubbish
Yes it is a boat that just two can handle but you don't need to move the helm for that.
I walk round our FB all the time when docking - you dont need to be right beside the controls

From what I've heard, this is already a very popular boat and will probably turn out to be one of the great designs.

 

[Nick_H]

The saloon is actually quite a bit larger if you take the old saloon as being the small sofa.

I suppose it comes down to how often you want to use the dinette. We hardly ever use it, but then it's not raining the whole time where we are

I'd have a coffee table made on an adjustable pedestal, with folding leaves, so it can convert to an internal dinette on the odd occasions we need to use it, then we'd have no need for a seperate dinette. Once you've overcome that issue, I think the P52 deck level works really well, with a big saloon for lounging, a decent size wrap around galley in a great location for serving the cockpit and the internal stairless flybridge, and an open area either side of the patio doors for daytime frivolities. I think it probably works better in the med, maybe that's why you're not so keen.

I'm with Mike on the flybridge issue, and anyway just fit a third control or buy a remote and the problem goes away.

I still don't like the sunpad on the flybridge though, but I could live with it by fitting two biminis, a manual one over the table area, and an automated one over the helm/sunpad.

 

[henryf]

But don't you think the space opposite the existing galley is wasted ? I don't know if you've seen it in the flesh ?

Pedestal mounted tables in a sitting area never really work. I mean would you bolt something to the floor of your sitting room at home ? My suggestion is to use what is currently wasted space opposite the galley to deal with a dining area. By all means if you want to fit a dining table which reduces in size allowing less formal use of the dinette seating area that's great. Like having a sofa in your kitchen at home.

The wrap around galley doesn't work very well in the flash. The space inside the island unit is tight and the island thin meaning you have to contort to get access to drawers. You can't face the drawer and open it towards you. The high line units in my proposed design will provide the additional storage required and more than compensate for what's lost in the island unit.

Are you suggesting using some form of remote every time you dock ? Is that not a sticking plaster solution. Surely better to solve the problem. You also have the problem of the flybridge stairs. In the current design you have to twist back round on yourself and squeeze behind anyone sitting on free standing chairs in the cockpit to get inside the boat.

Put it this way, for all the disadvantages and safety issues in having the flybridge helm on the starboard side what is the advantage ? I can't think of any.

Henry

 

[henryf]

Your changes haven't done anything for me, Henry
I think you are trying to spec your existing boat which you obviously love.
The P52 is about a making a change away from the old layouts - and IMO it works.
My SWMBO doesn't like the galley on the accomodation deck - she thinks the galley is a social place as well as the saloon.
Hence our last boat and this one having galleys in the living spaces.



IMO, Henry this is rubbish
Yes it is a boat that just two can handle but you don't need to move the helm for that.
I walk round our FB all the time when docking - you dont need to be right beside the controls

From what I've heard, this is already a very popular boat and will probably turn out to be one of the great designs.

I'd say my proposed design is a country mile away from the P50. Galley up at the back, saloon moved into the middle of the boat and raised, dining area taken aft to relate to the cockpit. That's a massive difference and acknowledges the core thinking behind the P52.

We will never agree on the flybridge layout. I like to be touching the controls as I look at my crew dockside when mooring up. To keep running across the flybridge for a quick look then running back to the controls then back again is madness. You could shout at each other I suppose but that doesn't seem very professional.

I will ask you the same question, for all the disadvantages of having the flybridge helm position to starboard what's the huge advantage which prevents you swapping ?

Henry

 

[Nick_H]

No, I haven't seen it in the flesh, but have seen your excellent photos and the video walk rounds. Maybe it would feel different when I walked on to it. Having said that, you haven't walked round your alternative layout either, and if you had I wonder what you'd have thought of the tiny saloon, where you can only squeeze 4 people on the sofa. That would stop me buying the boat.

I don't think the space opposite the galley is wasted, in the same way as I don't think an entrance hall and gallery landing are wasted in a house. Actually, for us, on the 57, the dinette space is wasted because we hardly ever use it, and I'd much sooner have an open area next to the cockpit instead. As i've said, it depends how you use your boat, but you seem determined to prove it's a bad layout, when in reality it's just one that doesn't suit you.

A pedestal mounted coffee table doesn't need to be bolted to the floor, any more than a standard coffee table, just fit it on a largish base. It's a coffee table 99% of the time, but gives you an internal dining option when you need it. If you want to dine inside regularly then I agree your layout works better. I think this is the big difference between us.

I take your point on the flybridge in as much as there's no great disadavantage to have it the other way round, I just think it's a minor issue that's easy to work round, and all boats are compromises.

 

[henryf]

No, I haven't seen it in the flesh, but have seen your excellent photos and the video walk rounds. Maybe it would feel different when I walked on to it. Having said that, you haven't walked round your alternative layout either, and if you had I wonder what you'd have thought of the tiny saloon, where you can only squeeze 4 people on the sofa. That would stop me buying the boat.

I don't think the space opposite the galley is wasted, in the same way as I don't think an entrance hall and gallery landing are wasted in a house. Actually, for us, on the 57, the dinette space is wasted because we hardly ever use it, and I'd much sooner have an open area next to the cockpit instead. As i've said, it depends how you use your boat, but you seem determined to prove it's a bad layout, when in reality it's just one that doesn't suit you.

A pedestal mounted coffee table doesn't need to be bolted to the floor, any more than a standard coffee table, just fit it on a largish base. It's a coffee table 99% of the time, but gives you an internal dining option when you need it. If you want to dine inside regularly then I agree your layout works better. I think this is the big difference between us.

I take your point on the flybridge in as much as there's no great disadavantage to have it the other way round, I just think it's a minor issue that's easy to work round, and all boats are compromises.

Can I start by saying I hope you agree we are having a debate and not an argument

I haven't walked around the revised design but after 5 years at art college studying design and then modelmaking after which I set up an architectural modelmaking division within an existing company I've got a reasonable idea of how spaces might work. Having built a 70 foot narrow boat from bare steel I feel further empowered to judge small spaces that float.

The fact there are 2 full sized seating areas inside the boat gives a nett gain on the existing design. I also hope that spreading the seating out will give a feeling of space compared to everyone huddled around the dining table / small sofa.

Like my 50 the 52 is trying to pack a massive amount into a small space and so I don't think it can afford the luxury of unused floor space. That table in the dinette opposite the galley has scope for flexibility. Could it serve a dual purpose as a cockpit table opening up that seating area when you want to just relax? Could it fold up, drop down and move?

I like the thought of a settee in the galley, very social.

We will have to disagree on the flybridge. I see it as a potential safety issue and can see not reason for not changing it. Being based in the UK most of our mooring is done side on as opposed to stern to so possibly that's where we differ. But given there is no advantage to having it on the starboard side I'm struggling to see the resistance to change when there is a clear advantage and no apparent loss.

As you say all boats are a compromise especially at this size but that's not an excuse for poor design. Compromise as a last resort not because you can't be bothered.

Henry

 

[jfm]

I prefer the flybr helm to starboard so I thing I'd "flip" the back half of the flybridge a la your proposal henry but leave the front half as is. Then the 2 seating zones would be opposite sides, which is better balance I think. I definitely agree with hurricane that while berthing the boat I don't stay right at the helm all the time. The boat is only in gear perhaps 10% of the time anyhow. I'd much prefer to spec a remote and drive it the last few metres into the berth from the lower aft cockpit then you're right next to your crew and have zero communication issues

Inside I don't think I'd like the aft kitchen at all but if i have to have it I prefer your flipping of it. I too don't like the dining table at the main sitting room sofa and your re-work cures that niggle. Only thing to remeber with your tall fridge freezer on same side as fly stairs is that it will clash with the top 2 flybr stairs where they come "inside" the boat. See pic below. The freezer tower will have to be nudged froward a bit and you'd need to study in detail how much that spoils the kitchen. Alternatively you could cut a notch out of the appliance all pukka-sheetmetalworkishly - there is precedent on this forum for that though someone will surely tell you it voids the Meile warranty

The other thing I'd do is frit a top bit of the galley window glass and put a line of high level cupboards in there. You just need 'em. Possibly with white or silver painted doors not walnut, or something

 

[Nick_H]

The fact there are 2 full sized seating areas inside the boat gives a nett gain on the existing design.

Not if they all want to talk to each other it doesn't

I also hope that spreading the seating out will give a feeling of space compared to everyone huddled around the dining table / small sofa

Arghh they wouldn't be huddled around a dining table, because I wouldn't have one!

I think we may have exhausted this discussion .... please .....

 

[henryf]

I prefer the flybr helm to starboard so I thing I'd "flip" the back half of the flybridge a la your proposal henry but leave the front half as is. Then the 2 seating zones would be opposite sides, which is better balance I think. I definitely agree with hurricane that while berthing the boat I don't stay right at the helm all the time. The boat is only in gear perhaps 10% of the time anyhow. I'd much prefer to spec a remote and drive it the last few metres into the berth from the lower aft cockpit then you're right next to your crew and have zero communication issues

Inside I don't think I'd like the aft kitchen at all but if i have to have it I prefer your flipping of it. I too don't like the dining table at the main sitting room sofa and your re-work cures that niggle. Only thing to remeber with your tall fridge freezer on same side as fly stairs is that it will clash with the top 2 flybr stairs where they come "inside" the boat. See pic below. The freezer tower will have to be nudged froward a bit and you'd need to study in detail how much that spoils the kitchen. Alternatively you could cut a notch out of the appliance all pukka-sheetmetalworkishly - there is precedent on this forum for that though someone will surely tell you it voids the Meile warranty

The other thing I'd do is frit a top bit of the galley window glass and put a line of high level cupboards in there. You just need 'em. Possibly with white or silver painted doors not walnut, or something

With the P50 we have a port hand transom gate and if things get tricky being able to view the dock from the flybridge helm is a must. We might berth in more inclement weather to you Southern boys & girls so having full control at all times is a blessing. As the boats get larger close quarters movement becomes more predictable but at this size and coming into busy marinas you can never have too much control.

A docking station would be lovely but it isn't a feature of the boat so I'm trying to perfect the existing design rather than add more complications.

I wonder if the starboard preference is because you're all right handed ?

I had already specified hi-line units in my mind and would return them over the sink to form a bit of a divide between the Galley and Saloon. I was on the P50 this weekend and looked at the space under the flybridge steps, it's fine. You would be butting the fridge close up to the underside of the steps but I'm happy there wouldn't be any sheet metalwork to do.

I feel dirty even thinking about custom layouts....... I wonder who I've caught it off ?

Henry

 

[henryf]

Not if they all want to talk to each other it doesn't



Arghh they wouldn't be huddled around a dining table, because I wouldn't have one!

I think we may have exhausted this discussion .... please .....

Here's a thought. Pull out seating which either sits under the centre section of the saloon seating or under the two sticking out bits. You pull them over to the TV cabinet area and create 2 more sitting spaces in that area. They could also be used for the galley side of the dining table.

Henry