Princess P45 Gearbox ZF 280 1A

[Soul_dancee]

Hi
Engine Volvo penta D9
Gearbox ZF 280 1A

Nightmare ?I had a feeling of slipping in the port side shaft, so i hired a mechanic to take a look at both gearboxes, he couldn't find any fault during our sea trials. Oil looked good. No leaks temperature was good. Pressure was good.

Decided to take oul samples from both gearboxes and the shock was the we found trace of water and high levels of copper. The mechanic is suggesting overhauling both gearboxes. It's a big job but if i can't avoid it. I will end up doing it. Pictures attached shows parts from the oil sample report.

I have few questions if i can use some of ur expertise.

1.how bad s the situation
2. Can it happen without docking the boat
3. Do we need to do alignment after the overhaul is completed.
4.can we do the alignment in the water.
5. Can i take tge boat to 85nm trip before doing the overhaul.
6. Can i delay doing the overhaul until October and still use the boat for 3 hours a week.

Thanks guys.

Ur contributions are highly appreciated

Best Regards

 

[TK Blue MAX]

Hi, when these gearbox clutches slip there is no feeling about it!!!! its like driving over a cattle grid and vibrates the whole boat, once they have slipped they will keep doing it if you floor the throttles,
is the water fresh or salt? if fresh you might get away with changing oil and driving steadily to get your 85 nm, but could be risky if any offshore work involved, accelerating gently usually prevents the clutch from slipping, gearboxes could be removed in the water on our Targa 52, will depend on access, engines will probably have to be lifted at the rear to remove the boxes which will require realignment .

Best of luck.

 

[kashurst]

Talk to these guys -
Marine & Industrial Transmissions | Driveline Systems | MIT Group

They do completely rebuilt and tested marine gear boxes. I think they will take yours as Part Ex.

 

[Soul_dancee]

Talk to these guys -
Marine & Industrial Transmissions | Driveline Systems | MIT Group

They do completely rebuilt and tested marine gear boxes. I think they will take yours as Part Ex.

Unfortunately that will not be practical as i am located in dubai

 

[Soul_dancee]

Hi, when these gearbox clutches slip there is no feeling about it!!!! its like driving over a cattle grid and vibrates the whole boat, once they have slipped they will keep doing it if you floor the throttles,
is the water fresh or salt? if fresh you might get away with changing oil and driving steadily to get your 85 nm, but could be risky if any offshore work involved, accelerating gently usually prevents the clutch from slipping, gearboxes could be removed in the water on our Targa 52, will depend on access, engines will probably have to be lifted at the rear to remove the boxes which will require realignment .

Best of luck.

I will try to get more clarification if the water is fresh or sea.

The 85nm trip is going to be to the place where the gearbox will be fixed.

Amnot sure if changing the lubricant will be costly but am sure that if i end up losing any of the gear boxes in the mid way will be much costly.

I am really in a bad position ?

 

[kashurst]

MIT will ship gearboxes around the world. I had one sent from the UK to Spain by plane.
Subject to access it's not that hard to change a gearbox. It sounds like your gearbox coolers need checking and re-sealing too.
If you had the gearboxes flown out (not crazy expensive) could your mechanic travel to the boat?

 

[Soul_dancee]

MIT will ship gearboxes around the world. I had one sent from the UK to Spain by plane.
Subject to access it's not that hard to change a gearbox. It sounds like your gearbox coolers need checking and re-sealing too.
If you had the gearboxes flown out (not crazy expensive) could your mechanic travel to the boat?

I think he can
I will try to contact MIT

 

[Moonstruck]

Had exactly the same problem on a P45. MIT rebuilt the gearbox and it was transported to Spain. Within a few hours use it was slipping again. MIT were very disappointing and didn’t want to know about the problem. Ended up getting another gearbox and changing it over. The job can be done with the boat in the water.

 

[Soul_dancee]

Had exactly the same problem on a P45. MIT rebuilt the gearbox and it was transported to Spain. Within a few hours use it was slipping again. MIT were very disappointing and didn’t want to know about the problem. Ended up getting another gearbox and changing it over. The job can be done with the boat in the water.

That is a very bad experience.


I am seriously thinking about changing the oil and doing the required servece for the cooler and continue using the gearbox untill its fully damaged, then replace it with a new one or have it rebuilt.

 

[Moonstruck]

That is a very bad experience.


I am seriously thinking about changing the oil and doing the required servece for the cooler and continue using the gearbox untill its fully damaged, then replace it with a new one or have it rebuilt.

If it’s slipping I personally wouldn’t take the chance and I would deal with it now. It’s only going to get worse not better. I had high readings of copper and aluminium in my oil sample.

 

[Soul_dancee]

If it’s slipping I personally wouldn’t take the chance and I would deal with it now. It’s only going to get worse not better. I had high readings of copper and aluminium in my oil sample.

actually it's not slipping, it is just the trace of water and the high level of copper that worries me

 

[Bran]

I will try to get more clarification if the water is fresh or sea.

The 85nm trip is going to be to the place where the gearbox will be fixed.

Amnot sure if changing the lubricant will be costly but am sure that if i end up losing any of the gear boxes in the mid way will be much costly.

I am really in a bad position ?

Looking at the results the water is definitely not sea water because the sodium level is low so is either fresh water or condensation.
The difference in copper levels between the samples is not that big, 200 to 500 ppm variance in copper is not that big a value. Do you have any historical data on oil analysis for the gearboxes? Don’t forget that 10000 ppm is only 1% of the concentration so we are talking of relatively low amounts. You would need to get some comparative data from other gearboxes before you can make a decision as to how abnormal the results are and the risk in making the voyage. High copper can be due to wear or leaching, further analysis of particle size would help make this more understandable, but is an expensive test.
The PQ readings together with the Iron readings indicate there is not massive wear on the gears or clutch housings, a badly worn gear for example could give a PQ reading in the thousands.
I have no experience of these gearboxes but have 30 years experience of working with oil analysis systems. I never bothered analysing any of my oils because without historical data and comparisons with similar setups they don’t tell you very much unless you have a catastrophic failure.

 

[Soul_dancee]

Looking at the results the water is definitely not sea water because the sodium level is low so is either fresh water or condensation.
The difference in copper levels between the samples is not that big, 200 to 500 ppm variance in copper is not that big a value. Do you have any historical data on oil analysis for the gearboxes? Don’t forget that 10000 ppm is only 1% of the concentration so we are talking of relatively low amounts. You would need to get some comparative data from other gearboxes before you can make a decision as to how abnormal the results are and the risk in making the voyage. High copper can be due to wear or leaching, further analysis of particle size would help make this more understandable, but is an expensive test.
The PQ readings together with the Iron readings indicate there is not massive wear on the gears or clutch housings, a badly worn gear for example could give a PQ reading in the thousands.
I have no experience of these gearboxes but have 30 years experience of working with oil analysis systems. I never bothered analysing any of my oils because without historical data and comparisons with similar setups they don’t tell you very much unless you have a catastrophic failure.

Thanks alot for your input.

Ur analysis is totally true and it match ZF dealer thoughts.
Tgey suggests to do a full service and use the boat for 200 hours and then do another analysis.

Best Regards

 

[harvey38]

"Nightmare ?I had a feeling of slipping in the port side shaft, so i hired a mechanic to take a look at both gearboxes, he couldn't find any fault during our sea trials. Oil looked good. No leaks temperature was good. Pressure was good."

"Decided to take oul samples from both gearboxes and the shock was the we found trace of water and high levels of copper"

Just trying to put some perspective into this -

You had a feeling - What was the feeling?

The mechanic couldn't find any fault, oil looked good and Ts & Ps all good then?

Leaving your "Feeling" aside, personally I would drain both boxes, flush, drain refill and use the boat for a while then have the oils from each side checked again by the same company, but after how many hours
would be an interesting topic of discussion.

It has taken 1274 hours to develop/discover the levels you currently have, have the levels been a constant at each oil change, or are they increasing with time? The answer you won't know
until you have future samples analysed.


I'd not get too worried at this stage.

 

[Soul_dancee]

"Nightmare ?I had a feeling of slipping in the port side shaft, so i hired a mechanic to take a look at both gearboxes, he couldn't find any fault during our sea trials. Oil looked good. No leaks temperature was good. Pressure was good."

"Decided to take oul samples from both gearboxes and the shock was the we found trace of water and high levels of copper"

Just trying to put some perspective into this -

You had a feeling - What was the feeling?

The mechanic couldn't find any fault, oil looked good and Ts & Ps all good then?

Leaving your "Feeling" aside, personally I would drain both boxes, flush, drain refill and use the boat for a while then have the oils from each side checked again by the same company, but after how many hours
would be an interesting topic of discussion.

It has taken 1274 hours to develop/discover the levels you currently have, have the levels been a constant at each oil change, or are they increasing with time? The answer you won't know
until you have future samples analysed.


I'd not get too worried at this stage.

Actually that is my plan to use time to analyze the situation, mean while will proceed with the required maintenance.

Best Regards

 

[harvey38]

Actually that is my plan to use time to analyze the situation, mean while will proceed with the required maintenance.

Best Regards

It's easy to overreact sometimes, take one step at a time and see what develops, hopefully you will continue this post with your findings and it comes nowhere near as serious as a new gearbox.

Good luck buddy ?

 

[volvopaul]

Hi
Engine Volvo penta D9
Gearbox ZF 280 1A

Nightmare ?I had a feeling of slipping in the port side shaft, so i hired a mechanic to take a look at both gearboxes, he couldn't find any fault during our sea trials. Oil looked good. No leaks temperature was good. Pressure was good.

Decided to take oul samples from both gearboxes and the shock was the we found trace of water and high levels of copper. The mechanic is suggesting overhauling both gearboxes. It's a big job but if i can't avoid it. I will end up doing it. Pictures attached shows parts from the oil sample report.

I have few questions if i can use some of ur expertise.

1.how bad s the situation
2. Can it happen without docking the boat
3. Do we need to do alignment after the overhaul is completed.
4.can we do the alignment in the water.
5. Can i take tge boat to 85nm trip before doing the overhaul.
6. Can i delay doing the overhaul until October and still use the boat for 3 hours a week.

Thanks guys.

Ur contributions are highly appreciated

Best Regards

Oh now here is a story .

when I first saw this post I assumed you had the TAMD 75 p engines , then I see D9 .

I am afraid you have a pair of engines that have slipped through the net , I’d guess because your in Dubai .

A little story .
All the Broom 450s with D9 500 have had to have the ZF280 gearboxes changed to ZF325 .

This is down to the box just not being man enough for the super torque curve of the D9 , all the Broom 450s were fitted with new gearboxes under warranty irrespective of age or hours , it was an embarrassing event for both Volvopenta and Broom boats .

The research carried out was mainly deduced from the data of the ZF 280 , if you look at the hp and torque it can take it’s on the border line of what the ZF can take , some argued it was ok others in the trade simply knew it wouldn’t take the torque of the D9 , look at a graph , that engine pulls from nothing which eats gears like a kid eating chocolate, some of the Brooms boxes failed in catastrophic style spitting gears out the casing , burning the oil etc etc .

The point I’m making is that your a victim of a complete drive package miss match .

My advise would be not to overhaul or replace with the ZF 280 , you will only be in the same position very soon after , you will need to replace with the ZF 325 which if you have the room is a fairly straightforward job which requires different rear engjne mounts and a shorter shaft coupling or if you have the plastic coupling you remove it .

The last of the run of Broom 450s , I look after the last one built has the Twin disc gearboxes fitted so I am assuming that Volvo made a decision not to fit any more ZF boxes to the D9 after this episode of failures .

I will add that it was only the earlier D9 engined450s that had some failures , Broom then acted to inform all owners of the free upgrade , thankfully some owners never had failures as it was caught in time , a wise decision before some owners required a tow.

 

[Seastoke]

Oh now here is a story .

when I first saw this post I assumed you had the TAMD 75 p engines , then I see D9 .

I am afraid you have a pair of engines that have slipped through the net , I’d guess because your in Dubai .

A little story .
All the Broom 450s with D9 500 have had to have the ZF280 gearboxes changed to ZF325 .

This is down to the box just not being man enough for the super torque curve of the D9 , all the Broom 450s were fitted with new gearboxes under warranty irrespective of age or hours , it was an embarrassing event for both Volvopenta and Broom boats .

The research carried out was mainly deduced from the data of the ZF 280 , if you look at the hp and torque it can take it’s on the border line of what the ZF can take , some argued it was ok others in the trade simply knew it wouldn’t take the torque of the D9 , look at a graph , that engine pulls from nothing which eats gears like a kid eating chocolate, some of the Brooms boxes failed in catastrophic style spitting gears out the casing , burning the oil etc etc .

The point I’m making is that your a victim of a complete drive package miss match .

My advise would be not to overhaul or replace with the ZF 280 , you will only be in the same position very soon after , you will need to replace with the ZF 325 which if you have the room is a fairly straightforward job which requires different rear engjne mounts and a shorter shaft coupling or if you have the plastic coupling you remove it .

The last of the run of Broom 450s , I look after the last one built has the Twin disc gearboxes fitted so I am assuming that Volvo made a decision not to fit any more ZF boxes to the D9 after this episode of failures .

I will add that it was only the earlier D9 engined450s that had some failures , Broom then acted to inform all owners of the free upgrade , thankfully some owners never had failures as it was caught in time , a wise decision before some owners required a tow.

Could he still get under warranty.

 

[Soul_dancee]

Oh now here is a story .

when I first saw this post I assumed you had the TAMD 75 p engines , then I see D9 .

I am afraid you have a pair of engines that have slipped through the net , I’d guess because your in Dubai .

A little story .
All the Broom 450s with D9 500 have had to have the ZF280 gearboxes changed to ZF325 .

This is down to the box just not being man enough for the super torque curve of the D9 , all the Broom 450s were fitted with new gearboxes under warranty irrespective of age or hours , it was an embarrassing event for both Volvopenta and Broom boats .

The research carried out was mainly deduced from the data of the ZF 280 , if you look at the hp and torque it can take it’s on the border line of what the ZF can take , some argued it was ok others in the trade simply knew it wouldn’t take the torque of the D9 , look at a graph , that engine pulls from nothing which eats gears like a kid eating chocolate, some of the Brooms boxes failed in catastrophic style spitting gears out the casing , burning the oil etc etc .

The point I’m making is that your a victim of a complete drive package miss match .

My advise would be not to overhaul or replace with the ZF 280 , you will only be in the same position very soon after , you will need to replace with the ZF 325 which if you have the room is a fairly straightforward job which requires different rear engjne mounts and a shorter shaft coupling or if you have the plastic coupling you remove it .

The last of the run of Broom 450s , I look after the last one built has the Twin disc gearboxes fitted so I am assuming that Volvo made a decision not to fit any more ZF boxes to the D9 after this episode of failures .

I will add that it was only the earlier D9 engined450s that had some failures , Broom then acted to inform all owners of the free upgrade , thankfully some owners never had failures as it was caught in time , a wise decision before some owners required a tow.

Actually u might be correct.

ZF mentioned that 280 are supposed to run for 12000 hours and they think that something is not right.

I guess we have to wait until the gears eat them self the take decision


Best Regards