Princess or Ferretti , what boat would you choose?

[Mr Googler]

Thanks for posting Farsco, yes the piccies will come (in a few weeks hopefully)
FL and SS were never on my list,
FL have a radar arch where I like the tender (in that model/age)
SS not really my taste sorry for that

P en F seemed a good compromise, but still prefer a boat with more Character

Apologies, of course. Note to self....read things I write more carefully before pressing the submit button!!!!

 

[Divemaster1]

.....one with a GM12V92TA 1080 HP, unfortunotly this one is on the dry, so engines probably can't be started.

and another one with MAN 1100HP

do you have tips what I should look for on these engines ?

......we won't be joined by a diesel engine specialist, as we (Elly and myself) first want to know if such a boat suits us...
unless you would have some spare time, and would like a FOC trip to Rome ! ......
QUOTE]

Bart, thank you for the confidence implied in the posting ... much apreciated, but think a trip may be a bit too early to consider at this juncture..

However, your first proirity should be as you say "if the boat suits us"..., which should take president. If the answer is yes... then there are the issues around the boats various systems etc. And on one of these, there are loads of them!! Engines, two generators, fuel systems (some with fuel transfer), Hydraulics, Battery, 240 & 24 electrics, cathodic protection etc... and that's just some of those linked to the engine room (where the two iron lumps are located..).

Can only advise on the GM lump...
By the way, engine can e started on the dry !! ... remove impellor (10 min job...I have done mine!!) from raw water pump, and you can run engines up to working temperature... Not that the yard would permitt it of course, as they will state that the virations may dislodge supports...

I would expect the engine to be washed down as she is on the hard, so will be very little you can see as such... (and do be prepared for engine being physically bigger than the MAN ... about 30% perhaps), but look at the installation overall. Engines may be mirrored, with the main servicable parts easily accessible, but do make sure you have good acess on the outside of the engines. If access to the outside is restricted, there may bemore questions around how they service the engine(s). You need good access to remove both the rocker covers on these for exhaust valve and injector timing adjustments, which is part of the tune-up regime on a DD. You should also have a full set of functional engine instrumentation down in the engine room ... and on this installation, I would expect to see full start/stop controls as well. Not much more to say really as she should be prepared for sale.... oh... do look for ear defenders .. if they are down there, then it may be an indication that you have a caring owner/crew, who actually do a visual inspection when underway, which is always a good sign...

Now if the boat fits, then you become more serious.... startup from cold (and I mean cold !!! exhaust manifold should be cold to touch), load tests, (compression tests if slow startup)... or as a minimum visual inspection of the cylinder liners and piston rings .... (yes you can do that on these engines). Rapidly after a load test/sea trial, take an oil sample for analysis and send off for a report ...etc... etc... But we can cross that bridge when you get there...

By the way ...you may find that GM/Detroit service agents are under heavy machinery, commercial marine etc., as you'll find these in ferries, fishing boats, trains, cranes, generators etc.

Good luck....

 

[MapisM]

Why not ask if MapisM would be available for a Rome based inspection. Mario will have good knowledge of the local product no doubt.
Rumour also has it that he knows a thing or three about good wine also

Well, actually Rome is not exactly around the corner also for myself, but that aside I'd definitely recommend Bart to have a qualified engineer looking at engines etc. - I'm only an amateur in this respect.
Re.good wine instead, more than glad to select some bottles and keep them handy.
As I undestand, Bart will soon have a good reason for toasting glasses!

 

[BartW]

OK,
will start to make a checklist for all items to look for,and to inspect, when I'm at the boat
there are quite a few bits, to be sure not to forget something.

In case somebody on here has such a list,
as a help to do a pre-survey on a boat, pls let me know.

I believe some time ago MBM had some articles on that,
will dig out the old magazines

 

[BartW]

Why not ask if MapisM would be available for a Rome based inspection. Mario will have good knowledge of the local product no doubt.
Rumour also has it that he knows a thing or three about good wine also

I think he’s in winter mode now, enjoying Italian wine, on a far distant island in the med,
Moreover I believe he can only give advice on extremely slow turning diesels, or extremely high powered fuel guzzling petrol engines

 

[MapisM]

I think he’s in winter mode now, enjoying Italian wine, on a far distant island in the med

Oi, when in winter mode I'm also busy trying to earn a crust, to afterward throw it in a hole in the water during summertime!
Also because my liver wouldn't stand the treatment you and AM seem to think I'm giving it...
Anyhow, by coincidence I will actually be in that Med island next week.
If you see any boat lying there, which might be of interest for yourself, maybe I can arrange to have a look if you wish.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I'm making appointments for looking at two boats in Rome !!

Good luck BartW. Piccies please. I really like your attitude in terms of looking for a boat with 'character' rather than a plastic tub as most of us own

 

[AndieMac]

Also because my liver wouldn't stand the treatment you and AM seem to think I'm giving it...

Apparently your country-men rate amongst the healthiest in the world, not to mention the experience of two thousand years of wine production.
I reckon you would have the quality and quantity thing sorted out by now

BTW you three, Divemaster Alf, BartW and MapisM do have a couple of things in common you know....classic Italian boats and keen divers.

 

[BartW]

I really like your attitude in terms of looking for a boat with 'character' rather than a plastic tub as most of us own

Thank you Mike,
and if you had doubts, I consider the F 185 to have some character aswell !
I just made an appointment to have a look at one here in Belgium now next sunday morning.
piccies will follow.

 

[BartW]

Divemaster Alf, BartW and MapisM do have a couple of things in common you know....classic Italian boats and keen divers.

oth regarding alcohol and wine, we still have some things to learn from each other

 

[BartW]

Yesterday we were at the Belgium Boat Show, (yes I know that this sounds funny)
after having visited LIBS and BOOT, a few weeks ago, didn't expect anything new to see at BBS but nevertheless met a few interesting people / company's that could be usefull when this projects comes together. (rebuilding boats and engines, fabric suppliers, GRP work, ….)

but before we went to the show, we were in Antwerp Marina, to look at a 1991 Ferretti Altura 58.
this is the one,
http://www.navi-sell.com/ProductDetail.aspx?id=238

the friendly owner showed us the complete boat and allowed us to inspect whatever we wanted.
I didn't tell him that we were more interested in the slightly newer model, called F185. But we took this occasion to look at this almost the same A58 cause she’s in Belgium, (our preferred F185 is in Greece)

The F185 has exactly the same hull, and same internal accomodation, but a few minor changes;
- different FB layout
- higher power MTU engine (1100HP in stead of 1000HP)
and the F185 is also available with a Galley in the saloon (not downstairs), and then has 8 beds in stead of 7.

now about the boat we saw,
- 20 years old, but still very clean boat, very few scratches or damages despite its age,
- all accomodation and furniture still orriginal, but due to age it has a beige grey teint, so in fact you can't replace anything without distroying the homogenious and aging look inside. (unless you change everything)
- boot didn't seem to be used a lot, but due to age and lack of cleaning for a long while, outside looked very grey and dirty, and green algea on the canopy's.
- we were quite impressed with nice features such as the saloon door that can he hinged upwards, and fixed on the FB roof, so that you have a big saloon opening to the deck.
Nicely hidden fridges with SS doors, for drinks on the FB and in the saloon, ….
But the thing that surprised me the most was how small the height is of that boat. The engine room is only 1.5m high at its highest point. The area behind the engines where a crew bed was supposed or used to be was only 1m high, (so ne real crew cabin)
The boat had a tender crane, not mounted on the FB, but on the swim platform.
The engines and most other technical stuff looked all quite good (being 20yo).
I’m sorry, pics we made , not on this computer.
The rear deck and acces to the platform is very good, that’s important for us.
I can imagine that this boat rides very nice and very fast , so must be fun to drive, 2x 1000HP in a 20m, +-25T boat !,
And it’s the first model in this size, I come across, where the swim platform is part of the hull, (longer water length)
but we agreed that this is not a boat for us, she has only 7 berths, (or 8 in the 185) and absolutely no room to make one single extra bed.
And the accommodation looked to good to replace and too old “fashion” to be nice.
They had a 3.5m rib sitting on the platform, bigger is not possible, also not on the FB.

Up to another model / Brand, next week in Rome !

 

[BartW]

last week I found a 1992 Canados 60 with retrofitted transom opening and steps to the bathing platform, (done by Canados yard) really nice integrated almost as if it was like that originally.
Unfortunotly the add was taken from the net when I asked for more info, as it was sold.

I've got these pics from the broker,
here you can see (not very clear) how canados modified the stern of a C60,
added steps

I also noticed that they modified / lowered the deck sides,
perhaps thats why they have changed to model name from C60 to C18,
I didn't find any other C18 on the net.

 

[AndieMac]

Good luck with the boating hunting Bart.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

Hello Bart I think this Canados was modified by the owner more then Canados itself.
The C18 was the last version to be made of the Canados 58 hull. C18 and C60 look more like a 70S. If you are in this size and style look at a San Lorenzo 57, and 62, and Tecnomarine T62, and Posillipo 67 Tecnema (perfect if you want 4 cabins). This last would be my preferred to be honest! SL 62 is always very hard priced and only 3 cabins.
That grey taint happens on a lot of boat I see, even younger to ten years old! A friend had a Fairline 42 Phantom from 1997 which developed this after five years, and another on a Ferretti 53 from 1998 after more or less the same age.
Many will tell you it is because of the sun and heat, but I think it is because they use some sort of cleaner which does not agree with the lacquer the woods are treated with.
Still I would look at a Ferretti 185 Fly or 185S, as there is a lot of difference between them and the 58. For a larger tender on the Ferretti 185 or 58, I would remove the bathing platform crane (easy job to do), and put a powerful hydraulic passarelle. Like this you can free all the platform and use all the beam. I did the job on a 150 Fly a few years back.
Don't impress yourself with the speed more or less with 1000hp a Ferretti 58 will do like 26 knots max, may be 28 if the engines and running gear is perfect which is not a lot. Weight for the 58 should be 30 tons plus to be honest, which is a 65 feet overall boat.
Knew of a 185 Fly in Rome from 1994 with 4 cabins, if you want I can arrange you for a look. PM if interested.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Bart IMHO that A58 is well overpriced even though it looks like a nice boat. For that money you could be looking at an early 53 from around 1998-2001 which is a much more modern boat and only 1m less in length.
Are you talking about the grey tint of the interior woodwork? If so, I'm afraid thats a Ferretti fault. The cherrywood they use does fade if if its exposed to the sun constantly. We have the same in some areas of our boat and we are very careful to close all curtains and put covers on when we are not on the boat. Its only a visual thing but irritating all the same.
The saloon window which hinges upwards is a Ferretti trademark and it is something that drew us to Ferretti in the first place. Its a really nice feature which opens up the saloon to the cockpit. You say you were surprised by the low height of the boat. That is another Ferretti characteristic; they tend to be lower and wider than comparable boats although part of this is a visual trick because they use clear plastic all around the flybridge instead of white grp coamings which tricks the eye into thinking the boat is lower. Ferretti make a thing in their advertising about the centre of gravity of their boats being as low as possible and, in theory, this is a good thing for seakeeping. If you compare Ferrettis to other boats of the same length, you'll generally find they are beamier (wider); this is important because this gives more accomodation inside. Also the beamier hull rolls a bit less at sea and at anchor. The hull stretching right back to the end of the bathing platform is good because it maximises the waterline length for better seakeeping but it is not exclusive to Ferretti; Fairline hulls, for example, are the same generally.
A word about Ferretti prices. Ferrettis cost more than most other boats new and some owners think that this should mean that Ferrettis should fetch a higher price on the used market. The trouble is that the used market is more price sensitive than the new market so there are very few used boat buyers willing to pay a premium for a used Ferretti. Ferrettis are generally very well built boats and they make good used buys because of that but dont pay a large premium over other boats

 

[BartW]

Hello Bart I think this Canados was modified by the owner more then Canados itself.
The C18 was the last version to be made of the Canados 58 hull. C18 and C60 look more like a 70S. If you are in this size and style look at a San Lorenzo 57, and 62, and Tecnomarine T62, and Posillipo 67 Tecnema (perfect if you want 4 cabins). This last would be my preferred to be honest! SL 62 is always very hard priced and only 3 cabins.
That grey taint happens on a lot of boat I see, even younger to ten years old! A friend had a Fairline 42 Phantom from 1997 which developed this after five years, and another on a Ferretti 53 from 1998 after more or less the same age.
Many will tell you it is because of the sun and heat, but I think it is because they use some sort of cleaner which does not agree with the lacquer the woods are treated with.
Still I would look at a Ferretti 185 Fly or 185S, as there is a lot of difference between them and the 58. For a larger tender on the Ferretti 185 or 58, I would remove the bathing platform crane (easy job to do), and put a powerful hydraulic passarelle. Like this you can free all the platform and use all the beam. I did the job on a 150 Fly a few years back.
Don't impress yourself with the speed more or less with 1000hp a Ferretti 58 will do like 26 knots max, may be 28 if the engines and running gear is perfect which is not a lot. Weight for the 58 should be 30 tons plus to be honest, which is a 65 feet overall boat.
Knew of a 185 Fly in Rome from 1994 with 4 cabins, if you want I can arrange you for a look. PM if interested.

Hi William, was expecting you on here for a while

if you read through the posts you will get to know our preferences,
The Ferretti 185 is definitly too small,
we would like minimum 8+2 berths, (or room to make them)
The Canados 70 is now my favourite,
The C18 got my attention because of the Idea of modif acces to the platform, would like to do something similar on the C70

Your sugestion for the Posillipo 67 Tecnema is indeed a very good one, acces to the bathing platform for the divers is perfect !!!
Unfortunotly she's not so nice as the C70 (I know its taste) and the ones I found are over the budget.

What's your opinion about Canados 70, (several on the market)
and which engine would you choose, 1990 DD 1040 HP or 1992 MAN 1100 HP ?

kind regards, and thanks for posting

 

[jfm]

and put a powerful hydraulic passarelle

That part is easy. The difficult part is making the transom strong enough

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

That part is easy. The difficult part is making the transom strong enough

With the Ferretti 150 Fly from 1994 we had no problem for this as the transom part was already strong enough. We added some marine ply with fiberglass for precaution where you put the passarelle cylinder. So far today after 7 years no hairline cracks and the owner has a 300kg Nourvania 3 meter on board. This MY had previous an electronic working Besenzoni passarelle, which looks like a standard passarelle and works with a remote. I think this was standard on the 150 of the time.

The Canados 70 is a lovely boat IMO, and they where my first love in mid eighties along with the Pisa Akhir, and the old Posillipo Martinica or Tobago thanks to their dual colors mostly white or grey/white hulls with black super structure. And thanks to this I started looking for more mags at the time outside MBY and started reading Italian Nautica too.
I have been told that with MAN 1100hp engines a Canados 70 will perform about 2 knots better. Mostly this happens because the MAN engine is much lighter to the old GM. OTOH those GM should have much cheaper part prices. The MAN is also more silent to the GM as far as I know.
To my knowledge a 70S would do like 26-27 knots with GM 1080hp top, and 28-30 knots with MAN 1100hp.
I was once aboard a 70S in 95 and where peaking like 29.4 knots loaded which is pretty good. This was a 1 year old yacht.
But Canados altough quite heavy have a good efficient hull!
Please also note the difference between a 70 and a 70S.

 

[MapisM]

the owner has a 300kg Nourvania 3 meter on board

Blimey, did he ballast that thing?!?

 

[BartW]

Posillipo 67 Tecnema (perfect if you want 4 cabins). This last would be my preferred to be honest!

I have to apologise to you,
The PT 67 is a very GOOD candidate for us, contrary to what I posted here before !
Last night I was to tired to look more carefull, but today I found a few nice items on offer. THANK you for the tip.

compared to the Canados 70, she has the following advantages:
- perfect acces to the platform also for divers with their stuff
- lighter displacement, faster, less fuel, ...
- a little shorter length (closer to 20m compared to the canados she's closer to 24m with all related issues for morrings.)
- 5 year younger boats then equivalently priced C70's

but the Canados looks a little more "timeless" or am I wrong ?
what is the difference between 70 and 70S ? the ones I'm looking at are all 70S I think ?

How would you compare the C70 to the PT67 ?

there is an interesting PT67 on offer in Athens, If you can find one pls let me know, I don't mind a project boat as you know.


I like this quote on your blog about the PT65 (the younger sister),
and summerises what kind of boat I am looking for:

The Posillipo 65 Technema really ticks the boxes where it matters most, with generous performance and a bigger boat feel which is for sure one of it's higher selling criteria. Surely it is not the most innovative motor yacht in the twenty metre range, but Posillipo yacht buyers are usually the type of experienced yachtsman who have seen it all and done most, and are more looking for a timeless classic conservative design that is out of the actual fashion schemes and does not feel dated after the next fashion trend.