Premature failure of standing rigging.

[ProDave]

How would you feel if you thought you were doing the right thing and replacing perfectly sound looking and performing but unknown age standing rigging with new, because you keep being told you need to replace at 10 years, and then your new standing rigging starts to fail at 3 years old?

This has just happened to a friend with whom I was sailing with yesterday on his boat.

As we set off everything looked fine, no obvious faults, boat was sailing well. We dropped anchor and went ashore for lunch. On our return as I went forwards to pull up the anchor, one of the lower port shrouds had snapped about 2/3 of it's strands at the lower terminal. The failure was so obvious we rigged a temporary bypass and motored back both agreeing it would be unsafe to raise any sails.

It then turns out one had also failed like that last year. First failure at 3 years old, second failure at 4 years old. There is now no confidence at all in any of the other new standing rigging.

His is going to contact the supplier but apparently with last years failure the supplier denied responsibility and he had to pay for the first replacement.

How best to proceed? It is clearly wrong that new standing rigging is failing so young.

And why is this of interest to me and why am I posting it because the issue is not with my boat? Because we have just replaced our shrouds this year with new from the same supplier so are now wondering are we going to face the same problem in a few years?

 

[veshengro]

As a beginning perhaps it would be best to ask your friend if he has any paperwork in relation to his rig. Is there a wire specification noted down? If there is, perhaps he should get a professional opinion on the wire used for his rigging. If there is a discrepancy, then he has a starting point for dealing with the supplier.

 

[Birdseye]

How best to proceed? It is clearly wrong that new standing rigging is failing so young.

Possibly but not necessarily. As a young tec graduate my second job in Sheffield was in a plant that made stainless steel wire - the individual strands that make up your rigging wire. Austenitic stainless steel work hardens when you bend it so if you take a piece and bend it to and fro it will soon break. No way round this issue. So the question you need to ask your friend is whether the rigging design on his boat puts a sideways strain on the wire, maybe because it is far too slack. The original British Steel boats ( remember Chay Blyth?) had a series of forestay failures for this reason. Their forestays werent given the required arrangement of toggles which meant that they repeatedly bent where the wire came out of the swaged fitting, fatigued and failed. Failures almost never occur mid way through a length of wire - almost always where the wire exits a swaged fitting.

It could of course be that the steel itself is dirty and full of inclusions or even cracks but the fact that this failure has happened twice and both times at the exit of a swaged fitting would make me think that the fault is in the boat rigging design.

A few photos would help decide

 

[dunedin]

What do you think the cause of the failures are? Assuming the wire is a fairly standard commodity, and failing near the connections could it be
- the terminals have the wrong alignment causing the failure ?
- rig tension too slack ?
- bad making of the ends by the rigger (what type of end treatment is used) ?

 

[ProDave]

Interesting thoughts.

The rig did seem a little slack to me, more slack than I would personally like, but certainly not "floppy" The owner sets the rig tension himself each year at launch / mast up.

Fatigue due to bending seems unlikely. As far as I know he had new wire with new swaged on fittings each end. The design of the rig did not change, so assuming the original rig had the correct fittings to allow movement then the new one will have.

So from what I have seen nothing has changed. So why would the original old rig in use for many years have survived when the new wire failed in as little as 3 years when everything else appears the same?

As far as could be seen by naked eye, there are signs of rusting as you look down into the fitting. Clearly it wants proper inspection with a microscope or at least magnifying glass to see how the strands have failed.

I am not involved in the discussions to resolve the failure but I hope I will find out what they find.

My concern is the material supplied is either more prone to rusting or much more prone to fatigue failure than the original. That imho makes it substandard.

Back to our own boat. When we ordered the new rigging, the supplier was given details of the make and model of the boat, and then provided with the old rigging to take away and use as a pattern so he could select the correct wire and fittings and of course correct length. I would assume that is all that was required. If not he would have asked but I honestly don't know what further information we could have given him.

 

[penberth3]

....Austenitic stainless steel work hardens when you bend it so if you take a piece and bend it to and fro it will soon break. No way round this issue. So the question you need to ask your friend is whether the rigging design on his boat puts a sideways strain on the wire, maybe because it is far too slack.

I guess any vibration would have the same effect in the same place?

 

[[70521]]

How best to proceed? It is clearly wrong that new standing rigging is failing so young.

Contact their insurance company. Let them sort it out.

 

[ProDave]

Contact their insurance company. Let them sort it out.

You mean the boat owner should contact the boats insurance company?

 

[[70521]]

You mean the boat owner should contact the boats insurance company?

Yes.

If the owner suspects that there is an issue with rigging and the riggers are not willing to discuss the issue I would be contacting my insurance company, they may say this is a legal issue and point you at lawyers.

In a past life I got involved with safety critical systems and my ears would prick up if I had two failures in such a short time. It really needs properly investigated. Anything from bad tuning to a defect in the wire batch could be the cause.

As they say, 'once is an accident twice is coincidence', and really aught to be investigated.

 

[ProDave]

I know on the first failure the rigging supplier refused to cover the cost and refused to even come and look at the boat.

If it were me, my discussions with the supplier would include suggesting that if it had failed while sailing and the mast had come down, it is highly likely the boats insurers would be looking to the rigging suppliers insurance to cover the costs.

One "issue" we have living up here is there is only this one rigging supplier nearby that does most of the work for most of the boats. If we were in a more populated area like the Solent, it would be very easy to get a different rigger to come and look and advise.

 

[dunedin]

If the owner contacts their insurers, the first thing they will probably say is don’t sail the boat until rigging replaced. And withdraw cover on the mast and rigging immediately.
And if the mast failed, would need a lot of evidence to prove the rigger was at fault, and not some other reason. Might be not sailing for a few years whilst this got argued.

As in post #4, there are potential reasons related to boat or setup (eg lack of tangs etc) that could cause premature failure. A few pictures might help the experts on here to advise.
Also, sure your owner does not do this, but the rigger may point out that some people tie mooring ropes round stays due to lack of middle cleats, and other forms of abuse - that are difficult to prove did not happen.

Unless some photos point to an obvious cause, you need to get a second opinion from a professional rigger. Yes there would be some mileage costs, but cheaper than lawyer fees. Perhaps try Coast to Coast Rigging who have a great reputation - Home Page

 

[RunAgroundHard]

I would replace the piece of rigging and carry on sailing. Then inspect the rest of the rigging regularly.

Life is too short to argue the point years after having it fitted.

 

[benjenbav]

It seems to me that the rigging should be expected to last longer.

The one positive is that no harm has been done other than needing to work out why it’s happened and make arrangements for the future that will be more long-lasting.

If the other yachts in the area are rigged by the same firm and their rigs don’t keep falling down, is it a problem with this boat’s design? Or, was it a bad batch of material? Or was the rigging made less well than this firm usually manages?

The rigger has a statutory duty to deliver goods and provide services to consumers that are reasonably fit for purpose. This duty is implied if not expressly stated in the contract between the rigger and the boat owner. And that’s the minimum standard that will apply whether the contract is a written document or an undocumented payment in cash.

If the rigging firm doesn’t want to know, they can be made to pay attention because of the above, whether they choose to come to the table willingly or are dragged there by the owner or the owner’s insurer.

 

[ProDave]

Thanks. I have sent an email to C2C, this is more about some other work we want on our own boat.

 

[ylop]

The rig did seem a little slack to me, more slack than I would personally like, but certainly not "floppy" The owner sets the rig tension himself each year at launch / mast up.

Therein lies the riggers defence - the owner set the rigging up each year (and presumably did not spot any signs of failure when he took it down) so had likely rigged it poorly.

Fatigue due to bending seems unlikely.

I don’t think it need to be floppy to work harden.

If it were me, my discussions with the supplier would include suggesting that if it had failed while sailing and the mast had come down, it is highly likely the boats insurers would be looking to the rigging suppliers insurance to cover the costs.

It’s highly unlikely they’d even contact the rigger 4 yrs after installation. If they did the riggers insurers would likely laugh at the idea that the person who’s done most work on that rigging is the unqualified claimant. Unless you can show with professional metallurgy report that there was some sort of latent defect or fabrication error then I can’t see how you can assign blame.

One "issue" we have living up here is there is only this one rigging supplier nearby that does most of the work for most of the boats. If we were in a more populated area like the Solent, it would be very easy to get a different rigger to come and look and advise.

Where are you? There’s multiple riggers in Scotland:

- Argyll Yacht Riggers (based Portavadie but will do all of the clyde and Argyll).

- Fairlie Riggers (Fairlie, Largs and Kip and probably travel anywhere that side of the Clyde).

- Clyde rigging in Ardrossan

- AS Yacht Services at Kilmelford - will travel around Argyll.

- Alba sailing at dunstaffnage offer rigging (they do it in house).

- Owen Sails at Benderloch offer standing rigging services

Suspect that many of the yards would make rigging up too - but without the expertise to advise on what’s best or the ability to do stuff like changing rigging with the mast up.

 

[ProDave]

Where are you? There’s multiple riggers in Scotland:

Just north of Inverness, it's in my profile.

If you know other riggers that cover Inverness please tell is.

 

[flaming]

Therein lies the riggers defence - the owner set the rigging up each year (and presumably did not spot any signs of failure when he took it down) so had likely rigged it poorly.

That was very much my thought. Tricky to hold the rigger responsible when the rig has been worked on multiple times since them by the client, unless there is incontrovertible evidence that it's a material or initial manufacture error. Getting a specialist rigging surveyor is going to be the only way to determine that.

This isn't the first thread recently about newish rigging showing signs of rusting. A trend maybe?

 

[ylop]

Just north of Inverness, it's in my profile.

If you know other riggers that cover Inverness please tell is.

You are out my knowledge area PG Marine and Caley Marina look to be the local options. A trip through the canal and get one of the Oban(ish) people to meet you at Corpach? Or if the mast is down take the old rigging to one of them or measure and order from an online place?

 

[dunedin]

Thanks. I have sent an email to C2C, this is more about some other work we want on our own boat.

Perhaps two jobs at the same location would make travel:more economic?

Certainly if you are unsure of the local rigger’s (a) quality and/or (b) after sales service,
even if this is wrong you would perhaps feel better getting your work done by a different supplier.

Incidentally, all our rigging got removed locally but sent “down south” to Allspars to make the new stuff, then posted back. Distance is not really a big issue if have a bit of time in the winter.
(NB Rod in our case, hence why local riggers could only do part of the job)

 

[ProDave]

Incidentally, all our rigging got removed locally but sent “down south” to Allspars down south to make the new stuff, then posted back. Distance is not really a big issue if have a bit of time in the winter.
(NB Rod in our case, hence why local riggers could only do part of the job)

Could certainly do that for shrounds, but I am thinking ahead to this winter and wanting the forestay replaced, but that is contained inside the furler so has to be made in place. I can't see that being done by mail order.