Power gives way to sail?

The example was entirely real, and happened 2 years ago. The yacht in question was last seen still tacking across all the boats coming in the main channel, though not shouting for right of way quite as loudly as before. Tow back up Hamble was successful.
 
Re: Power gives way to sail? Signals

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I was more thinking of the mobo-er (like me). I have an anchor ball, but no cone - so would struggle to make the appropriate signals.

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Well I suppose you could fly flag Delta - "I am manoevering with difficulty; keep clear" - if you have it but I doubt that it would be noticed, even less understood.
 
Certain liberties here I think ...

I agree that many boats particularly small power boats do not have provsion to hang shapes / signals off .... and that is appreciated ... and not the argument.

The post you made was what do you think of this situation and I agree with your feeling that you felt put out by other boats behaviour. But many of us have also posted the technical and practical difficulty from otrher perspective. That of rules and also ability to determine your predicament ... difficult unless in flat calm waters ... and then the other boat would have been motoring !

Night-time passage .... as I read the other guys post - I think he assumed that the length of passage you had undertaken indicated you would have had a period through the night to arrive at destination - given the overal distance. He was not saying that you were in Hamble at night time.

Physical ability to show a signal or otherwise does not excuse the rule ... if you pick up a copy and check - you will find reference to odd shaped vessels and carraige of lights etc. as best as possible.

I think the post that advised you might have called Hamble Harbour Master .... or even CG etc. would have been a good idea ... considering that you must have been somewhat concerned about the tow ... you mention yourself the desire to shorten and put alongside by going to a buoy etc.

So we have indicators here .... a) other guy sailing hard indicates reasonable breeze ..... b) your desire to put tow alongside but hadn't done it before entering channel ... mmm little bit too windy for it outside so wait till sheltered waters perhaps ? .... c) no signals or indication other than a boat 30ft behind that you were towing ????

IMHO - I would have probably had the tow on very short cable in those circumstances - much less than 30ft ... in fact literally right up ... AND if I can't have signals flown ... I have actually put rags etc. on the rope to try and show its there ....

So really a victim of circumstances and we all have sympathy with you and applaud your efforts to help another etc.

I would ask that comments posted are purely comments and as such limited in that they can only work on what you give in way of information ........ plus of course some go off at angles due to some other post etc.

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Re: Certain liberties here I think ...

Wind wasn't the issue, it wasn't that strong. Could have easily put an alongside tow on before entering the Hamble, but given the wash, as already explained, not a great idea. 30' was right for the conditions, and shorter and there would have been a great deal of surging.

Where did you get the idea I was concerned, or had a desire to put alongside tow before entering. Shortening was simply to make things a bit more controllable and less likely to cause accidents going around the marker posts (if I'd left it long, I'd have had to go very wide, towed boat had very little steerage). I always go alongside when towing up the Hamble, it's commonsense, nothing to do with concern about tow - but after I get to lifeboat drop where there is little current, little wash, and lots of bouys to pick up, not before. I have done this before, many, many times. Think you might be trying to read too much into this, and making up all sorts of conditions that weren't the case, like strong wind. All ready explained reason for 30' tow was wash conditions several times over.


Wish I'd never brought it up now, people always want to dissect down to a level from their armchairs that simply weren't a concern at the time
 
Am I the only one who would not tack and expect another vessel to observe my actions and get out of the way. Altering direction and putting yourself onto a collision course and then expecting the other skippers to fix the problem is not only stupid (if busy, not talking open water here) but damn bad manners.

I had a similar situation in the Menai last year, I was heading for the bank and needed to turn, had I turned there would be a dinghy on the bow, so I did a 360° Gybe and waited it out. A little nervy, but fighting for rights has no place in this situation, nor Brendans.

Had Brendan not been towing, I still think the yacht was way out of order, he could have taken speed off to allow Brendan past or, dare I say it, started his iron top sail and not been such a plank!

Taking up channels is all well and good if you have the place to yourself, flexing your rights and beating your chest has no place in busy waters.
 
That's rather more like the sort of discussion I expected. technically he may well have had right of way, but tacking directly at a boat (and crossing busy channel) was quite irresponsible. The fact that I was towing gave me few options in my own actions - if I'd not been towing, I still had a vessel just ahead of me, so a burst of power wouldn't have been a good option - best I could have done if not towing was full astern, which is not really a great idea in choppy conditions as you can take loads of water over the back and even swamp the engine. I think the only reasonable course (if not towing!) would have been to use the fact that I have a small manoeuvrable powerful boat, and opened up the throttle and slalom around the boat in front (bearing in mind there was a veritable convoy of boats going up several abreast)which would certainly have shaken up some of the other skippers nearby, but would have got me out of the situation with some level of safety. Far better he had tacked at an open space - but there weren't any really!
 
Now I think you have the point ....

Sorry to you for that exercise ....

But it was to illustrate just exactly what youy have cottoned ointo .... reading more into something than was posted ...

Again I apologise for the 'lesson' no ill intended and was as much for others as well.

Like many I get tired of seeing the "social workers" answer as I call it - the damn all ... Rule is Rule .... brigade, as well as the odd ones who quote parts out of context.

As I said in the other post - I applaud you for helping and towing ... I would do similar and like most people would consider my way at the time best and try to get through ... later study by armchair experts will produce a varied mix ...

hang in there and don't lose faith !!

Cheers
 
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Did consider side tow, but shortened it and decided that given the wash being generated by so many boats, that side tow was best done at lifeboat drop station. It's all about taking everything into account at the time, and it was the decision I made - which is easy to dissect afterwards, but still think it was correct one.



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Ah - no mention of excessive wash in earlier post. Unless you could fender up well then I see your point. As you say, you took the on the spot choice. Hind Site has always been right /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

However, I will reinterate my point about giving a call on Ch68. Would have taken the onus of you.
 
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Ah - no mention of excessive wash in earlier post. Unless you could fender up well then I see your point. As you say, you took the on the spot choice.

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There was lots of information I didn't and haven't posted - the reason being we were discussing colregs, not towing. If it had been a thread on towing, I'd have provided more pertinent info

The idea of calling HM for assistance is reasonable, but to be honest only something I'd consider if there were other issues
 
Oh! Dear. Perhaps you should look a little more closely at what I wrote. The night time must have occurred somewhere between Plymouth and the Hamble and I just wondered if you were equipped for that part of your trip. Without them perhaps you should not have considered the trip at all.
I know you were not able to display the signals because of the type of boat you are BUT you cannot expect everyone to see that you have a tow without them. I was merely making some sort of excuse for the skipper of the sailing yacht you were complaining about.
The other circumstances at the time might well have made his actions irresponsible, but IMHO you must carry some of the blame even if only a small amount for the reasons I have put forward.
It is very difficult for anyone to comment further if they were not actually present at the time.
 
signals, shapes, wot does the colregs say re boats under 12m, ????

in open water all he had to do was draw attention (as best as may be possible) to the fact he was towing ....... flashing morse for instance, vhf.

the colregs arent draconian for small boats on this issue but, yes blended with common sense
 
Why must it have occured? Why could not the tow have taken place only in daylight, stopping off at ports en-route? (actually it was a typo, meant Portsmouth) As night time was never mentioned, it's rather presumptive to bring it into the scenario I related which as I said in the original post was late afternoon and summer, so obviously daylight. Trying to introduce night into the scenario as I presented it?

I'm not going to start carrying the signals as I'd rather have sensible safety equipment enboard, there is no realistic way of showing them clearly. If people cannot see them, then there's no point having them. and I rather suspect most people on the water wouldn't actually recognise them anyway. As others have said, not required on a small vessel anyway, and the yacht was acting in contravention of local bye laws
 
calm down calm donw= plymouth error

um, it would all follow from plymouth, which u sed originally not portsmouth. It wd be disp speed, hence there wd've been some night time during a 170whatever mile tow.

Instead of which it's portsmouth.

SO. The very serious error you made was saying the tow was from Plymouth not Portsmouth. HOWEVER this doesn't contravene any colregs at all! - and you'll notice that lying about the weather conditions or the magnificence of one's boat and making all sorts of rubbish is all perfectly acceptable boaty behaviour.
 
Re: calm down calm donw= plymouth error

SO. The very serious error you made was saying the tow was from Plymouth not Portsmouth. HOWEVER this doesn't contravene any colregs at all! - and you'll notice that lying about the weather conditions or the magnificence of one's boat and making all sorts of rubbish is all perfectly acceptable boaty behaviour.


ha ha this did tickle me and the longer in the bar the truer it gets.
how about we all start carrying those amber flashing lights
the roadwork version (plenty about + freely available) stuck to the coachroof with blu tack, -- orange flasher - keep clear
downside, may get horny male hovercraft trying to mount you.

I would've said you were ok - on the edge of the nav channel with a boat very close up yer chuff - the tacking charlie should've read something into this if he was worth his salt -
the one thing I would have done as he passed in front/behind of me was to have shouted - not at him just large proclamation- restricted ability restricted ability maybe followed up with a five blast from the ol fog horn.
Yes I would have shouted not hailed or meekly pointed out but properly gone for it, oh and ok
what did you do next?
 
Re: calm down calm donw= plymouth error

The what I did next bit I explained earlier in thread, but basically got on vhf and called two small ribs nearby and got them to ride shotgun on the tow rope, blocking anyone from trying to go over it.
 
Re: calm down calm donw= plymouth error

Ahh! But did the 2 ribs show 2 flashing blue lights each, spaced 1m vertically at a minimum height of 2.2 m as required by Clause 4.2.3.1 "Towing Guard Duty Vessel Responsibilities" of the "Special Towing Regulations 1987" complete with the 2001 addendum? (big smirk)

John
 
Re: calm down calm donw= plymouth error

There are worrds for people like you! but the forum software would blank them out! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
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