ghost
Well-Known Member
Dont really wish to say anything here just want this post to push the 1000 envelope so.................
Power gives way to sail?
- Thread starter snowleopard
- Start date
ghost
Well-Known Member
we can see what the symbol does.........................ahh its the first time its been out in ages.......... go little symbol, go.
If you guys think this is dumb then consider the 'debating' that has preceeded this in this thread
If you guys think this is dumb then consider the 'debating' that has preceeded this in this thread
landaftaf
Well-Known Member
debating the subject often clears the air over misunderstandings and misconceptions, and even makes some ppl feel better after a grump.
are you sure you have nothing to add, as, imho, I am sure your views are more constructive than making comments just to increase the tote
are you sure you have nothing to add, as, imho, I am sure your views are more constructive than making comments just to increase the tote
kingfisher
Well-Known Member
Back to the topic
On topic. Raggies do NOT have right of way:
1. When MoBo is not making way
2. When overtaking
3. When the Mobo is not under command, restricted in her ability to maneuver or engaged in fishing (18b) or contrained by her draft (18d)
4. When crossing a channel or fairway (9d)
5. If the Mobo is following the starboard side of the channel ( 9a). I'm talking about the starboard side. Not the starboard-ish side.
6. in restricted visibility
So the moron raggie (yes, they exist) that tried to tack in front of a tow is in direct contravention of 9d and 2b ("good seamanship"). The good thing is that darwinism applies to these people as well, and that they will be weeded out naturally, hopefully before reproducing. Unfortunately, they tend to take other people with them.
On topic. Raggies do NOT have right of way:
1. When MoBo is not making way
2. When overtaking
3. When the Mobo is not under command, restricted in her ability to maneuver or engaged in fishing (18b) or contrained by her draft (18d)
4. When crossing a channel or fairway (9d)
5. If the Mobo is following the starboard side of the channel ( 9a). I'm talking about the starboard side. Not the starboard-ish side.
6. in restricted visibility
So the moron raggie (yes, they exist) that tried to tack in front of a tow is in direct contravention of 9d and 2b ("good seamanship"). The good thing is that darwinism applies to these people as well, and that they will be weeded out naturally, hopefully before reproducing. Unfortunately, they tend to take other people with them.
snowleopard
Well-Known Member
Re: Back to the topic
Well, finally come full circle back to the original question.
So we've established that sail does not always have right of way and plenty of raggies know that. The fact that some raggies don't know the rules doesn't make all raggies stupid, any more than the fact that some stinkies create unnecessary wash makes every stinky a dickhead.
Next question: any ideas for a signal to passing vessels that says 'you are in contravention of the col regs'... and can't be mistaken for 'up yours [no thanks]'???
Well, finally come full circle back to the original question.
So we've established that sail does not always have right of way and plenty of raggies know that. The fact that some raggies don't know the rules doesn't make all raggies stupid, any more than the fact that some stinkies create unnecessary wash makes every stinky a dickhead.
Next question: any ideas for a signal to passing vessels that says 'you are in contravention of the col regs'... and can't be mistaken for 'up yours [no thanks]'???
tcm
...
Re: Back to the topic
er and 9b?
er and 9b?
landaftaf
Well-Known Member
Re: Back to the topic
mmm - but your post seems to ignore many of the posts made previously, however its always nice to hear someone elses interpratation of the colregs. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
1. if the mobo is underway but not making way, and not showing ram/nuc lights/shapes, she is in fact still the give way vessel to a yacht or other powerdriven vessel on her stbd side - however strange it may sound. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
2 we are now into the realms of the hyperthetical, as usually the size of boats being used in these examples here in this forum are less than 20 m (for application of the steering sailing and rules) and 12m (for lights and shapes).
so .... here we go ..... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif unless there is insufficient water outside the channel for the mobo to operate, the mobo is not constrained by her draught ..... and unless it is not possible for the mobo to alter course accross the channel and remain inside the channel, or to slow down or speed up to avoid collision, she is not limited in her ability to maneouver, so is again the give way vessel. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
there is no provision to exempt the mobo from giving way if the yacht is crossing a channel or fairway - unless again the mobo is constrained by her draught, unable to slow down or speed up to avoid collsiion. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
3. restricted visibility - both boats are the give way vessel in restricted vis /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif, however if we presume the vis is 10 yds, 25 yds, 50 yds, 100 yds whatver, when the two boats are in sight of each other then the normal rules apply /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif .... etc, so the mobo will once again become the give way vessel. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
so basically we are looking at the situation when the yacht is the overtaking vessel, then the mobo is the stand on vessel until the yacht is finally clear - even if after tacking the yacht becomes a crossing vessel, the yacht is still the give way vessel .......... something a few yachties may foget in their excitement in overtaking a mobo in the first place. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
so, in conclusion, imho, I disagree with your interpretation of the rules. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
as for the, darwinian selection process, you may well distort the natural process by mowing down an innocent raggie who was trusting the mobo driver to do the right thing, even at the last moment ....... maybe his relatives are maratime lawyers.
/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
mmm - but your post seems to ignore many of the posts made previously, however its always nice to hear someone elses interpratation of the colregs. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
1. if the mobo is underway but not making way, and not showing ram/nuc lights/shapes, she is in fact still the give way vessel to a yacht or other powerdriven vessel on her stbd side - however strange it may sound. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
2 we are now into the realms of the hyperthetical, as usually the size of boats being used in these examples here in this forum are less than 20 m (for application of the steering sailing and rules) and 12m (for lights and shapes).
so .... here we go ..... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif unless there is insufficient water outside the channel for the mobo to operate, the mobo is not constrained by her draught ..... and unless it is not possible for the mobo to alter course accross the channel and remain inside the channel, or to slow down or speed up to avoid collision, she is not limited in her ability to maneouver, so is again the give way vessel. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
there is no provision to exempt the mobo from giving way if the yacht is crossing a channel or fairway - unless again the mobo is constrained by her draught, unable to slow down or speed up to avoid collsiion. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
3. restricted visibility - both boats are the give way vessel in restricted vis /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif, however if we presume the vis is 10 yds, 25 yds, 50 yds, 100 yds whatver, when the two boats are in sight of each other then the normal rules apply /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif .... etc, so the mobo will once again become the give way vessel. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
so basically we are looking at the situation when the yacht is the overtaking vessel, then the mobo is the stand on vessel until the yacht is finally clear - even if after tacking the yacht becomes a crossing vessel, the yacht is still the give way vessel .......... something a few yachties may foget in their excitement in overtaking a mobo in the first place. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
so, in conclusion, imho, I disagree with your interpretation of the rules. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
as for the, darwinian selection process, you may well distort the natural process by mowing down an innocent raggie who was trusting the mobo driver to do the right thing, even at the last moment ....... maybe his relatives are maratime lawyers.
/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
tcm
...
Restricted viz
um, if it's restricted vizibilty - it's restricted visibility. Can you - aha! - claim standon once you loom out of the fog? In other words - if you see something on your radar - you give way by turning no less than 60 degrees to port - you don't think hm, it looks a bit quick or big - i bet he's a ship or powerboat! - so i will continue. Unles of course you're a ahem highly experienced skiper of a moody 65....
um, if it's restricted vizibilty - it's restricted visibility. Can you - aha! - claim standon once you loom out of the fog? In other words - if you see something on your radar - you give way by turning no less than 60 degrees to port - you don't think hm, it looks a bit quick or big - i bet he's a ship or powerboat! - so i will continue. Unles of course you're a ahem highly experienced skiper of a moody 65....
landaftaf
Well-Known Member
Re: Restricted viz
if you dont have a radar (wow - yes this still happens on a lot of boats and some smaller vessels) and suddenly a boat looms out of the fog, you are now in sight of each other ..... obviously as you can see him you assume he can see you ...... so the steering and sailing rules apply. so, the boat with or without radar revert to vis rules ..... and ..... power normally gives way to sail - except when overtaking blah blah blah.
not sure where you got the 60 degree alteration from, unless its a rule of thumb for good practice, not in the rules though
if you dont have a radar (wow - yes this still happens on a lot of boats and some smaller vessels) and suddenly a boat looms out of the fog, you are now in sight of each other ..... obviously as you can see him you assume he can see you ...... so the steering and sailing rules apply. so, the boat with or without radar revert to vis rules ..... and ..... power normally gives way to sail - except when overtaking blah blah blah.
not sure where you got the 60 degree alteration from, unless its a rule of thumb for good practice, not in the rules though
landaftaf
Well-Known Member
Re: Back to the topic
Next question: any ideas for a signal to passing vessels that says 'you are in contravention of the col regs'... and can't be mistaken for 'up yours [no thanks]'???
MZ1 covers it -
'you are carrying out a dangerous navigation practice and I intend to report you'
Next question: any ideas for a signal to passing vessels that says 'you are in contravention of the col regs'... and can't be mistaken for 'up yours [no thanks]'???
MZ1 covers it -
'you are carrying out a dangerous navigation practice and I intend to report you'
Mike21
Well-Known Member
Re: Back to the topic
Oh dear here we go again, talking about rights of way, there is no right on way in the colregs, also you seem to be forgetting rule 17, responsibilities of stand-on vessel, still doesn't say anything about raggies being able to tack across the bows of other vessels who are overtaking them, only says about changing course or speed to aid avoiding a collision if the actions of the giveway vessel is insufficient, even in a crossing situation the stand-on vessel is siupposed to mantain course and speed.
OK I would not expect the raggie to run aground, but at the same time I see no need for him to use the whole channel as if he owned it to tack across, thus forcing another potential collision situation.
Outside a channel in open water there should never be any need to tack across the bows of another vessel as long as there was sufficient searoom
Oh dear here we go again, talking about rights of way, there is no right on way in the colregs, also you seem to be forgetting rule 17, responsibilities of stand-on vessel, still doesn't say anything about raggies being able to tack across the bows of other vessels who are overtaking them, only says about changing course or speed to aid avoiding a collision if the actions of the giveway vessel is insufficient, even in a crossing situation the stand-on vessel is siupposed to mantain course and speed.
OK I would not expect the raggie to run aground, but at the same time I see no need for him to use the whole channel as if he owned it to tack across, thus forcing another potential collision situation.
Outside a channel in open water there should never be any need to tack across the bows of another vessel as long as there was sufficient searoom
landaftaf
Well-Known Member
Re: Back to the topic
if a raggie is being overtakenby any power driven vessel, including a maneuverable mobo, then it is the overtaking vessels duty to keep clear of the overtaking vessel - full stop,
if a yacht is being overtaken and tacks towards the overtaking vessel then the overtaking vessel must keep clear - very simple ....... its in black and white .....
if a raggie is being overtakenby any power driven vessel, including a maneuverable mobo, then it is the overtaking vessels duty to keep clear of the overtaking vessel - full stop,
if a yacht is being overtaken and tacks towards the overtaking vessel then the overtaking vessel must keep clear - very simple ....... its in black and white .....
Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
Being pragmatic
He tried to pass through a racing fleet...............
Lighten up. It's getting like road rage in here. Some boaters do get hot under the collar out on the water. Just shrug and give them space. Life's too short and they will get their deserts at some point, preferably a long way from you.
He tried to pass through a racing fleet...............
Lighten up. It's getting like road rage in here. Some boaters do get hot under the collar out on the water. Just shrug and give them space. Life's too short and they will get their deserts at some point, preferably a long way from you.
landaftaf
Well-Known Member
Re: Being pragmatic
not been bothered much by either yachts or motorboats - its fishermen who are the bane of my life ...... there must be an international school somewhere dedicated in training the twerps how to (m)uck about passing ships
not been bothered much by either yachts or motorboats - its fishermen who are the bane of my life ...... there must be an international school somewhere dedicated in training the twerps how to (m)uck about passing ships
Mike21
Well-Known Member
Re: Back to the topic
Please explain why you can ignore rule 17 or rule 2 for that matter?
I'm comfused you see as I thought the rules were there to help people avoid collisions and I thought you were not supposed to purposely try and collide with another vessel /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Please explain why you can ignore rule 17 or rule 2 for that matter?
I'm comfused you see as I thought the rules were there to help people avoid collisions and I thought you were not supposed to purposely try and collide with another vessel /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
landaftaf
Well-Known Member
Re: Back to the topic
hi mike
not sure where I may be condoning the contravention of either rules ..... please can you be more specific.
the main problem in this thread is for every particular case under close inspection, because of the limitless variations available to the many circumstances highlighted, it is easy to become mixed up. if an overtaken yacht tacks towards an overtaking vessel (notwithstanding in the open sea) the overtaking vessel must keep clear - same as if a merchant vessel is overtaking another m. ship, and the overtaken vessel alters, the overtaking vessel must keep clear - and if he doesnt/cant fulfill his obligations then the overtaken vessel must do what is best to avoid a close quater situation or collision. exactly the same situation if a mobo overtakes a yacht .........
s i m p l e i n n i t -
hi mike
not sure where I may be condoning the contravention of either rules ..... please can you be more specific.
the main problem in this thread is for every particular case under close inspection, because of the limitless variations available to the many circumstances highlighted, it is easy to become mixed up. if an overtaken yacht tacks towards an overtaking vessel (notwithstanding in the open sea) the overtaking vessel must keep clear - same as if a merchant vessel is overtaking another m. ship, and the overtaken vessel alters, the overtaking vessel must keep clear - and if he doesnt/cant fulfill his obligations then the overtaken vessel must do what is best to avoid a close quater situation or collision. exactly the same situation if a mobo overtakes a yacht .........
s i m p l e i n n i t -
snowleopard
Well-Known Member
Re: Back to the topic
[ QUOTE ]
Next question: any ideas for a signal to passing vessels that says 'you are in contravention of the col regs'... and can't be mistaken for 'up yours [no thanks]'???
MZ1 covers it -
'you are carrying out a dangerous navigation practice and I intend to report you'
[/ QUOTE ]
Perfectly correct of course but the possibility of someone not knowing basic col regs but knowing how to look up an international code signal are pretty slim. The best I can come up with is a big board saying "LEARN THE RULES OF THE ROAD!" but that would be really anorakish.
[ QUOTE ]
Next question: any ideas for a signal to passing vessels that says 'you are in contravention of the col regs'... and can't be mistaken for 'up yours [no thanks]'???
MZ1 covers it -
'you are carrying out a dangerous navigation practice and I intend to report you'
[/ QUOTE ]
Perfectly correct of course but the possibility of someone not knowing basic col regs but knowing how to look up an international code signal are pretty slim. The best I can come up with is a big board saying "LEARN THE RULES OF THE ROAD!" but that would be really anorakish.
landaftaf
Well-Known Member
Re: Back to the topic
mmm - and probably not too effective as most if not all forumites who have posted on this threat also consider themselves conversant with the rules ..... interesting huh
mmm - and probably not too effective as most if not all forumites who have posted on this threat also consider themselves conversant with the rules ..... interesting huh
Mike21
Well-Known Member
Re: Back to the topic
Yep, simple really, stand-on vessel maintains course and speed, tough means you can't tack.
/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Yep, simple really, stand-on vessel maintains course and speed, tough means you can't tack.
/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
landaftaf
Well-Known Member
Re: Back to the topic
L O L .....
now I know you are saying that to antagonise ...... /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
oops ............... I assumed you knew the rules and would keep clear of me !!!!!
L O L .....
now I know you are saying that to antagonise ...... /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
oops ............... I assumed you knew the rules and would keep clear of me !!!!!