Power gives way to sail?

You should be carrying an anchor ball and a motor sailing cone, so if you feel that the tow makes you severely resticted in your ability to manoevre and you need to show RAM shapes you can make 'Ball-Diamond-Ball' out of the shapes that you carry. The cone will make a diamond and one section of the anchor ball at either end shows the correct shape - alright I know its in one plane only, but you can always twist it round and make it visible to any vessel on a constant bearing that you need to draw attention to your status to.

Of course if its no too difficult a tow, you remain a 'power driven vessel' in the rules and don't need to show shapes.

However before you think I'm too prissy and proper, sometimes shouting- (please read 'hailed him loudly') seems the only way. Like I did to the dozy child in a Mirror dinghy on Sunday who suddenly decided (and without looking) he was going to cast off from the end of the pontoon and was about to sail out in front of me as I was 5 Metres off the pontoon making my approach. He eventually looked round and with horror realised there was 10 tonnes of boat bearing down that he hadn't noticed.
 
All this shouting

Perhaps if we called it "Calling" or "Hailing" instead of shouting, it would become more acceptible?
As I've said in other threads - assume the helm of the other boat is an idiot and you won't go far wrong.
A simple "Hail" to what you believe to be the give way vessel should be sufficient, often this will need to be repeated cos they don't hear or comprehend.
 
Re: All this shouting

Fair point I will edit 'shout' - to 'I hailed him loudly'. Actually I am averse to shouting on a boat, I think I've lost the plot if I have to raise my voice.

Still felt like I was shouting at the Mirror dinghy though! Actually the problem was that I called out the dinghys name which was painted boldly down its side - and the young person didn't associate the dinghy name with him. Lots of heads turned, they saw what was happening, the child pulled the dinghy back into the pontoon and everyone resumed business. To be fair to the young man, there were dinghys everywhere as they were all coming in to lunch, and they were all chatting about their mornings adventures, and we had already been round once and asked them to budge up a bit to leave room on the pontoon for us to get alongside for a few minutes.
 
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Does anyone carry those? I don't, so I guess I won't be towing any more boats off the mud in Chi. Sheesh.


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Yep....

Only because I bought a set for my new boat, and then found a set in the bilges /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Seriously though..... IMHO....

I would question the wisdom of tacking up the Hamble on a busy summer afternoon... The Colregs are there to help us.... but if boats insist on sailing in situations where its unsafe, or marginal to do so, then, IMHO thats irresponsible... and the colregs will gradually be supplemented with more and more byelaws... or the insurers will drive restrictions upon us... I could easily see a time when insurers place restrictions such as, under engine only anywhere inside the Hamble River/Medina/Orwell etc etc between 0800 Saturday and 1900 Sunday...
 
Smarty pants /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif. Actually, I was more thinking of the mobo-er (like me). I have an anchor ball, but no cone - so would struggle to make the appropriate signals. I wouldn't let it stop me rendering assistance to someone though and I doubt it would stop anyone else.

Rick
 
No dayshapes required on a sub200m tow, and Rule 9d

If he crosses the channel he should not impede someone restricted the channel for reasons of saftey.

If your tow was under 200m there are no dayshapes required are there? Can't really claim to be NUC when he's come from Plymth to exaccerly the right place - plenty of perfectly good boats with lovekly steering and engines might fail to do that - no?

Brendan shd have sounded 5 or more short blasts on hooter according to the rules, tho not imperative. It wouldn't have happened if he was on an alongside tow i spose, tho again, it's not wrong - the other boat was chancing that he cd push him off.

Dunno why so many say it's 50-50.
 
if you care to have a quick look at the reference you are not required to carry them if under 12m, but of course may do so, of course if you all have big boys toys of over 12 m it is quite cut and dried

rule 27
g)Vessels of less than 12 metres in length, except those engaged in diving operations, shall not be required to exhibit the lights and shapes prescribed in this Rule.
 
do you think in retrospect it mite have been better to be an alongside tow (in tretorspect) not saying you were wrong, just, that the situation wd not have happened. I mean in the hamble, two 20foot boats 30 feet apart are not "obviously" towing. The sailing guy made reasonablish mistake, praps?

Towing someone all that way blimmek.

i wdve gone to alongside tow immneditately afterwds i think.
 
Stand on vsl can change course etc.

Be careful here .... OK the stand-on can alter course etc. when being overatakedn - but read the whole carefully as you do not have right to be stupid with it ... you are expected to not turn or do such as would embarrass or cause unnecessary risk etc. (My plain words ... )

Generally power should give way in unrestricted circumstances unless there are factors preventing the MOBO / power driven vessel from complying. It is also required of the stand-on vessel to also take such action to avoid collision as may be necessary if action of give-way vessel alone shall not prevent collision etc. etc.

Hard and fast use of rules leads to silly situations and a possible early grave ... sensible use and turn away if in doubt should suffice to keep your skin on for another day ....

There was a post the other day that mentioned a full 360 turn made by a vessel ... the postee couldn't understand why ... or made some comment based on his observation - NOT the same as the vessels view as who executed the turn .... a round turn out of a vessel is one of the best ways to reduce collision risk, is one of the best ways to slow a vessel in effect ... etc. etc. There must have been a reason that he did it and I have myself done it on occasion on small and large vessels to reduce coll. risk etc.

I like the coll regs posts normally - but there are many that get hung up on it and really get too wound up and stuck on a rule ... treat it as it is ... a rule to guide safe navigation and conduct on water. No court will give 100% blame to one vessel in a collision ... never ........... and any vessel that stands on regardless will feel pretty stupid in court when they get shot for it !! It could actually put the blame over 50% in some cases if not careful !!

/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
 
Orbiting

yes, i agree, a full 360 (or more than one) can make a situation just go away. It is v common in general aviation where controllers have limited info and half a doxen small planes can be told to orbit and effectively "freeze" in the air as a very much faster pane come in on a long fast final approach.
 
Problem when you towed the 20ft\'r

Did you show the required restricted ability to manouevre signal or were you just towing >.....

If you were just towing without any signal showing your inability btom manouevre etc. then the sail boat was technically within his rights to call. The fact that foredeck lassy saw the tow rope / towed boat and yelled - making him turn away is your lucky day.

Now I will give you a question that I was asked by DOT examiner for my Deck Officer Cert. :>

Open water you see a tug and tow on port bow approaching on steady bearing ... describe your actions.

My answer ... I would confirm the steady bearings by repeated interval checks and at reasonable distnace I would make bold and distinctive turn to allow the Tug and tow to pass unhindered. I accept and also state that without any signal indicating his restricted ability to manouevre I can stand on and he should alter course ... I believe it easier and prudent that I give him searoom to continue.

The examiner agreed with me and commented ... pity that a few others didn't consider it ... but yes you are supposed to stand on but the action you take as long as bold and plainly visible to other vessel is acceptable.

..... and that was Senior Examiner DOT Southampton.
 
<<< shall not be required to >>>>

Yes true .... I'd never argue with a Master Mariner !! and one that I have connection with now !!

But it is 'required' .... not 'should not' ..... my own thought and I am sure a Marine Investigator (MCA) would agree ... if you are in restricted ability - then show a signal to let others know ...

A boat having another 30 ft behind on tow is not so different to a couple of boats independent of each other going in / out of busy Chichester / Hamble / Ports etc. To see the tow line is not easy when so much else is going on ....

Sorry !! will now crawl away and read the rest !
/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
 
but thats the point Billy man,
We are constantly assessing who has the stronger position when navigating, I agree that despite the 'rules' if its simpler to just either circle, slow down or stop altogether rather than insist on your 'right in any situation,
that is gentlemanly seamanlike and just courteous and patient'. Commonsense - but there are skippers and crew out there with academic qualifications galore but not enough commonsense to steer a wheelbarrow, a lapse in common coupled with poor judgement = potential danger to craft and crew of all in the vicinity and any would be rescuers.
 
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I was trying to make the point (unsuccessfully it seems) that interpretation of colregs is ambiguous at times, despite the fact that many seem to think they should cover all eventualities - or maybe I did make the point after all - it seems to have generated more posts than I expected.

Common sense plays a large part in any sea going activities. No one yet has responded to the 'what did I do next' question

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I think we are in total agreement about the ambiguity of Colregs - and your example illustrates it well (How much of the example is real). Just goes to show that Rule 2 is the only rule that really matters (well I may allow rule 5 as well). I don't remember your "what did I do next?" question.
 
I didn't claim anything at all - please read my first question where I started with 'what do you think of this scenario?

I've also already stated that on a 21' boat I don't have room to carry every conceivable shape, nor have anywhere to display them - why do people have to go completley overboard on these sorts of threads, rather than applying a level of commonsense. I also stated we entered Hamble late afternoon, so where do you get the night time passage from. Please do read the information already provided before commenting
 
It was a long tow!

Did consider side tow, but shortened it and decided that given the wash being generated by so many boats, that side tow was best done at lifeboat drop station. It's all about taking everything into account at the time, and it was the decision I made - which is easy to dissect afterwards, but still think it was correct one.

Until that one incident, didn't think there was any requirement for official assistance. Towed plenty other boats up there. We took steps to avoid any further problems of that sort, hence question about what did I do next
 
ah right, didn't read properly earlier, yep from the lifeboat drop station side tow wd be sensible, i thort it was further up - so this happened *just* on the hamble between drop stn and confluence with soton water? They are all a bit blimmin to enthusiastic there i must say, some power, some sail...
 
See my reply to Solitaire. The side tow before entering Hamble was considered, however, the wash being generated by so many vessels entering was considerable, so I felt it was safer to carry on with reduced tow line, and this was working well.

as regards next step, I got on VHF, and asked a couple of small ribs nearby to ride shotgun on the towline, and fend off any other vessels, this worked well until we got to lifeboat drop, caught a buoy and arranged alongside tow,
 
imho to 'double up' or in tug terms 'go on the hip' too early is a receipe for damaging both boats, any swell/wash will cause problems unless extreamly we fendered, a difficult state to achieve with the balloon fenders normally used as they are difficult to position in the exact spot for any length of time.
what is too early - well that will vary but too early is if you range against the other boat because of swell or wash and cause avoidable damage.
as to using shapes (and lights as appropriate) of course it is advantageous to do so but not compulsory for v/l less 12 m etc ..... if I had them I would use them, if not well there is no choice is there. the regs tell you what to do at night if you dont have the proper lights ....
I am not being obtuse but where is the ambigularity ?
 
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