Oldhand
Well-Known Member
Not tonight for sure. There are so many ships out in the Channel tonight it would be easier to walk across rather than sail through them!
Power gives way to sail?
- Thread starter snowleopard
- Start date
bedouin
Well-Known Member
Well - unless you are flying any day shapes then the yacht is clearly not the give-way vessel....
Your example illustrates that colregs is not black and white in many cases.
On one hand, if the yacht could clearly see that you were towing then he would be wrong to expect you to give way (Rule 2). On the other if it is not totally clear to all that you are towing then you would be at least partly at fault.
If there was plenty of space then you might be wrong in getting so close to the yacht that his tacking immediately made the situation dangerous, but if space was tight as is often the case in the Hamble, then the yacht could be wrong in even trying to tack - unless of course he did not have an operational engine.
Had there been a colision then it is probably one of those cases where the court would give it near 50/50
Your example illustrates that colregs is not black and white in many cases.
On one hand, if the yacht could clearly see that you were towing then he would be wrong to expect you to give way (Rule 2). On the other if it is not totally clear to all that you are towing then you would be at least partly at fault.
If there was plenty of space then you might be wrong in getting so close to the yacht that his tacking immediately made the situation dangerous, but if space was tight as is often the case in the Hamble, then the yacht could be wrong in even trying to tack - unless of course he did not have an operational engine.
Had there been a colision then it is probably one of those cases where the court would give it near 50/50
G
Guest
Guest
You were in fact restricted in your ability to manoeuvre...
BrendanS
Well-Known Member
You've ignored the fact though that I said I was in channel on starboard side (correctly) he was outside channel, and tacked from heading upstream to directly at me, effectively crossing channel
You can't expect a 21 boat sportsboat to carry every day shape imaginable. For no other reason that I have no where to show them anyway - no mast, or anything like it. So by going to the assistance of a boat in trouble (which is also covered by colregs) I put my insurance premium at future risk if court is going to go 50/50 so next time I should just turn a blind eye?
You can't expect a 21 boat sportsboat to carry every day shape imaginable. For no other reason that I have no where to show them anyway - no mast, or anything like it. So by going to the assistance of a boat in trouble (which is also covered by colregs) I put my insurance premium at future risk if court is going to go 50/50 so next time I should just turn a blind eye?
Joe_Cole
Well-Known Member
Maybe it would have been worth going in a little later when boat activity was less and the tide wasn't so strong?
BrendanS
Well-Known Member
Why? everything was nicely under control with plans made to cope with most contingencies. Just because one boat decides to tack from outside channel directly across it, into a very busy channel with lots of other boats, didn't make the plan unworkable. Do you think given the congestion in that stretch of water at the time, he was right to be under sail only?
As another question. Given the circumstances, what do you think I did next?
As another question. Given the circumstances, what do you think I did next?
Ships_Cat
Well-Known Member
He was under 20m and outside the channel, you were proceeding correctly up the channel. It was apparantly safe for him to navigate outside the channel and he is not entitled to assume anything other than you are proceeding up the channel for safe navigation reasons (ie he cannot make your decisions for you). Therefore, in my opinion, he should not impede you nor, for that matter, anyone else proceeding up the channel.
Even if he had found that it was unsafe for him to navigate outside of the channel and so was tacking to enter it, because he was under 20m he still, in my opinion, should not impede you.
If he had of been over 20m, but he was not, the the situation would be different.
John
Even if he had found that it was unsafe for him to navigate outside of the channel and so was tacking to enter it, because he was under 20m he still, in my opinion, should not impede you.
If he had of been over 20m, but he was not, the the situation would be different.
John
Mike21
Well-Known Member
Yacht was in the wrong regardless of whether he had correct shapes ,as ANY vessel entering between the bouys or crossing the hamble is the giveway vessel. This is a local byelaw.
Also most yachts would be in breach of the local byelaws if they tacked up the Hamble at the weekend, re rule 5
5. The master of a vessel in the River shall navigate the vessel with care and caution and in such a manner and at such a speed as shall not cause nuisance, annoyance, excessive wash, damage or injury nor danger of damage or injury to any other vessel, person, or property in the River nor to the banks of the River or any person or property thereon.
Depending on your interpretation of course /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Not getting involved in argument re colregs and tacking, as the interpretation that many seem to have are not the same as was suggested by instructor while sailing in Scotland last year
Also most yachts would be in breach of the local byelaws if they tacked up the Hamble at the weekend, re rule 5
5. The master of a vessel in the River shall navigate the vessel with care and caution and in such a manner and at such a speed as shall not cause nuisance, annoyance, excessive wash, damage or injury nor danger of damage or injury to any other vessel, person, or property in the River nor to the banks of the River or any person or property thereon.
Depending on your interpretation of course /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Not getting involved in argument re colregs and tacking, as the interpretation that many seem to have are not the same as was suggested by instructor while sailing in Scotland last year
bedouin
Well-Known Member
No this is where a mobos lack of understanding of sailing can cause problems - a yacht tacking along a channel will usually use as much river as possible - and will almost certainly go out of the channel before tacking, then cross the channel again.
When you see a yacht close-hauled under sail outside the channel you should expect the yacht to tack back - and in fact if the yacht is about to run out of water he probably has no other choice. In most circumstances the yacht will be quite within his rights to tack.
If the sailing boat had no reason to think that you would have any problem in avoiding him, and you weren't showing any day shapes then he did nothing wrong.
If you were towing you were required to use "all possible measures" to indicate that you were towing. You could also argue that it was irresponsible of you to put yourself in a position of being that close to the sailing boat without having adequate means of indicating that you were towing.
As no collision took place then there was no problem, had one had happened I still think the courts would probably make it 50/50.
When you see a yacht close-hauled under sail outside the channel you should expect the yacht to tack back - and in fact if the yacht is about to run out of water he probably has no other choice. In most circumstances the yacht will be quite within his rights to tack.
If the sailing boat had no reason to think that you would have any problem in avoiding him, and you weren't showing any day shapes then he did nothing wrong.
If you were towing you were required to use "all possible measures" to indicate that you were towing. You could also argue that it was irresponsible of you to put yourself in a position of being that close to the sailing boat without having adequate means of indicating that you were towing.
As no collision took place then there was no problem, had one had happened I still think the courts would probably make it 50/50.
bedouin
Well-Known Member
Yes - I'm not aware of Hamble bylaws and I did say that there are circumstances where the yacht would be wrong even to try tacking in such circumstances, assuming he had a working engine.
I'm interested to know what the instructor's interpretation was...
I'm interested to know what the instructor's interpretation was...
BrendanS
Well-Known Member
"I" didn't put myself close to him. I was going up channel, within the channel. I had about 50 boats to keep an eye on, as did he. He chose to tack across me, then claim right of way, despite the fact that he was planning on crossing a channel at 90 degrees, full of vessels. Would he have claimed right of way over all of them?
Why also do you assume that I have no knowledge of sailing. As I've stated in other threads on the subject, many mobo's have come from a dinghy/racing/raggie background, and many still do.
[ QUOTE ]
No this is where a mobos lack of understanding of sailing can cause problems
[/ QUOTE ]
The first and only time I met you was in the wine supermarket in Cherbourg on the ybw cherbourg trip last year, and I didn't get there by mobo, nor the previous year, and I've dinghy sailed a fair bit, and have navigated on the London Sailing Projects 'Donald Searle'. I don't claim to be a great sailor, I don't do it frequently but I do at least have an idea - and taking Donald Searle back home makes the Hamble look very small!
Anyway, lets not turn this into another argument about interpretation of colregs, I was trying to make the point (unsuccessfully it seems) that interpretation of colregs is ambiguous at times, despite the fact that many seem to think they should cover all eventualities - or maybe I did make the point after all - it seems to have generated more posts than I expected.
Common sense plays a large part in any sea going activities. No one yet has responded to the 'what did I do next' question
Why also do you assume that I have no knowledge of sailing. As I've stated in other threads on the subject, many mobo's have come from a dinghy/racing/raggie background, and many still do.
[ QUOTE ]
No this is where a mobos lack of understanding of sailing can cause problems
[/ QUOTE ]
The first and only time I met you was in the wine supermarket in Cherbourg on the ybw cherbourg trip last year, and I didn't get there by mobo, nor the previous year, and I've dinghy sailed a fair bit, and have navigated on the London Sailing Projects 'Donald Searle'. I don't claim to be a great sailor, I don't do it frequently but I do at least have an idea - and taking Donald Searle back home makes the Hamble look very small!
Anyway, lets not turn this into another argument about interpretation of colregs, I was trying to make the point (unsuccessfully it seems) that interpretation of colregs is ambiguous at times, despite the fact that many seem to think they should cover all eventualities - or maybe I did make the point after all - it seems to have generated more posts than I expected.
Common sense plays a large part in any sea going activities. No one yet has responded to the 'what did I do next' question
Ships_Cat
Well-Known Member
A sailboat cannot impede any vessel that is proceeding up a channel for safe navigation.
There is another rule somewhere (not looked it up, but believe that it is under Risk of Collision) that for managing risk of collision situations one must not rely on scanty information. To assume that any other vessel proceeding up a channel is NOT doing so for safe navigation and so one stands on, surely places the onous upon yourself to prove that you had sufficient specific information to know that the other vessel was not constrained should an incident occur?
John
There is another rule somewhere (not looked it up, but believe that it is under Risk of Collision) that for managing risk of collision situations one must not rely on scanty information. To assume that any other vessel proceeding up a channel is NOT doing so for safe navigation and so one stands on, surely places the onous upon yourself to prove that you had sufficient specific information to know that the other vessel was not constrained should an incident occur?
John
ghost
Well-Known Member
let me hazard a guess, you told him bolox his crew slapped him for being a retard you carried on as you were and he bore away behind you
BrendanS
Well-Known Member
In summary yes, but not before a few cardiac arrests on both sides. Not so much bore away behind, as a crash gybe, which was half carried through before they decided to carry on across the channel disrupting progress of everyone in the channel (think exaggerated S shape, if they had gybed fully they'd have been on bank in very little time)
Never actually insulted him or said bollox, too busy yelling 'towing' and pointing at tow rope. The bollox bit came in a few seconds later when it occurred to me what I should have been yelling !
Never actually insulted him or said bollox, too busy yelling 'towing' and pointing at tow rope. The bollox bit came in a few seconds later when it occurred to me what I should have been yelling !
Ships_Cat
Well-Known Member
Maybe he didn't have his glasses on.
Some years ago here a keel yacht accidently tried sailing between an ocean going tug with a long tow back to a large barge. Keel hit the cable, yacht came to a sudden halt and the barge ran over the top of them killing the yacht's skipper (who was in his bunk).
Turned out that the woman on the yacht's helm was very shortsighted and didn't have her specs on. Goes to show that raggies are not always sensible about these things.
John
Some years ago here a keel yacht accidently tried sailing between an ocean going tug with a long tow back to a large barge. Keel hit the cable, yacht came to a sudden halt and the barge ran over the top of them killing the yacht's skipper (who was in his bunk).
Turned out that the woman on the yacht's helm was very shortsighted and didn't have her specs on. Goes to show that raggies are not always sensible about these things.
John
BrendanS
Well-Known Member
The saving grace of the day was that the young lady on foredeck, once she understood the situation, didn't hang around - she just yelled at skipper
He gave up yelling at me and responded instantly, so kudos to team work there
If he'd turned just a little to go by my stern, and run over tow rope, it would have been horrible. I've tried to work out what would have happened, but have never done calcs. All I know is that it wouldn't have been pleasant for me and boat I was towing
Challenge is still on to what I did next?
He gave up yelling at me and responded instantly, so kudos to team work there
If he'd turned just a little to go by my stern, and run over tow rope, it would have been horrible. I've tried to work out what would have happened, but have never done calcs. All I know is that it wouldn't have been pleasant for me and boat I was towing
Challenge is still on to what I did next?
Cornishman
Well-Known Member
As you appear to have been claiming your "rights" as a tug and tow were you showing the correct daylight shapes on both your vessel and the towed?
You say that you had very limited control, so ball, diamond, ball would have been appropriate.
That passage from Plymouth to Hamble must have had some night time, if only a few hours at this time of year. Did you have the correct lights?
You cannot expect everyone to see that you are towing unless you show the signals.
There is nothing wrong with being under sail in a harbour unless local rules prevent it. Good seamanship might dictate otherwise, but we are discussing Rules here.
You say that you had very limited control, so ball, diamond, ball would have been appropriate.
That passage from Plymouth to Hamble must have had some night time, if only a few hours at this time of year. Did you have the correct lights?
You cannot expect everyone to see that you are towing unless you show the signals.
There is nothing wrong with being under sail in a harbour unless local rules prevent it. Good seamanship might dictate otherwise, but we are discussing Rules here.
rickp
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
As you appear to have been claiming your "rights" as a tug and tow were you showing the correct daylight shapes on both your vessel and the towed?
[/ QUOTE ]
Does anyone carry those? I don't, so I guess I won't be towing any more boats off the mud in Chi. Sheesh.
Rick
As you appear to have been claiming your "rights" as a tug and tow were you showing the correct daylight shapes on both your vessel and the towed?
[/ QUOTE ]
Does anyone carry those? I don't, so I guess I won't be towing any more boats off the mud in Chi. Sheesh.
Rick
Solitaire
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Just towed a 20' boat (in my 21' boat) all the way from forts of Plymouth to Hamble.
[/ QUOTE ]
That was a long tow Brendan!!!!!!!!! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
[ QUOTE ]
I was keeping on very starboard side of channel with the tow on a now 30' line - (we'd reduced it before going in, and the intention was to go to an alongside tow once we'd picked up a buoy near the lifeboat drop test station downstream of harbour master office), on a spring outgoing tide. I was making about 8 knts but only doing about 4knts over ground but that was about as slow as I could realistically go and maintain any control while towing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Could you not have rigged the side tow outside the entrance? There is plenty of space to do so. A side tow, as I'm sure you are aware, would have given you much more control in the narrow channel than staying on the long tow.
Also, a thought for future reference, you perhaps should have contacted Hamble Harbour Master on Ch 68 and requested their assistance, they would either have taken over the tow or been able to "escort" you in under a blue light status thus making it clear to all concerned. That's what they are there for!
Just towed a 20' boat (in my 21' boat) all the way from forts of Plymouth to Hamble.
[/ QUOTE ]
That was a long tow Brendan!!!!!!!!! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
[ QUOTE ]
I was keeping on very starboard side of channel with the tow on a now 30' line - (we'd reduced it before going in, and the intention was to go to an alongside tow once we'd picked up a buoy near the lifeboat drop test station downstream of harbour master office), on a spring outgoing tide. I was making about 8 knts but only doing about 4knts over ground but that was about as slow as I could realistically go and maintain any control while towing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Could you not have rigged the side tow outside the entrance? There is plenty of space to do so. A side tow, as I'm sure you are aware, would have given you much more control in the narrow channel than staying on the long tow.
Also, a thought for future reference, you perhaps should have contacted Hamble Harbour Master on Ch 68 and requested their assistance, they would either have taken over the tow or been able to "escort" you in under a blue light status thus making it clear to all concerned. That's what they are there for!
landaftaf
Well-Known Member
rule 27
g)Vessels of less than 12 metres in length, except those engaged in diving operations, shall not be required to exhibit the lights and shapes prescribed in this Rule.
g)Vessels of less than 12 metres in length, except those engaged in diving operations, shall not be required to exhibit the lights and shapes prescribed in this Rule.