Potential issues on buying an under used boat

[Minerva]

Whilst my current boat is *almost* perfect for what I want and need but my head has been turned by a boat launched in 1990 which has the potential to make cruising significantly more comfortable and is, on paper, affordable. She has the potential to be a forever boat - safe for the family for extended holidays with ample tankage for extended periods - new work from home could quite easily see me able to work from the boat for the summer, provided I can still get to the office for meetings when required.

Major concern is to date she has only 90 engine hours recorded - original engine and presumed legit figure. I gather the sails, standing & running rigging will all be original too.

The interior photos all look pretty tidy and well maintained, so it would appear that the boat certainly hasn't been neglected, presumably it has been someone's retirement play thing / man shed.

Question being, how likely is it that the engine / sails & standing rigging will be serviceable after being effectively unused for 30 years? Boat's a 40ft ketch so replacement would be a significant sum.

Not viewed the boat yet and not necessarily wanting to waste the brokers time at the moment.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Question being, how likely is it that the engine / sails & standing rigging will be serviceable after being effectively unused for 30 years? Boat's a 40ft ketch so replacement would be a significant sum.

I expect the engine will be fine, as long as it has had anodes (if any) changed regularly. Your insurers will probably insist that you change the standing rigging. If the sails have been well protected they should be fine - my wee Hunter 490 has 30 year old sails which have done about four seasons (two when new, two when 25 years old) and they are still near-perfect. Worth checking whether, if the job has been up a furler all that time, the UV strip has been regularly replaced.

Basically I think any problems you will have from things which have not been used for thirty years will be trivial compared to the problems you'd get if the same things had been used for thirty years.

 

[dunedin]

It is quite probably that the engine hours readout has had to be replaced in that time. Our Volvo with MDI has restarted from 0 hours 3 times - once unbeknown to us pre-purchase.

 

[Biggles Wader]

Its a 30 year old boat and best to value it as such including the cost of a rerig which would be essential if you were going offshore. The problem may be that the vendor thinks its worth a lot more than it is because of "low hours"

 

[XDC]

I'd start by ignoring the 90 hours engine reading.

 

[Stemar]

More things on boats - including engines - die from underuse than overuse. If everything was put to bed properly, it should be fine, but how likely is that? If it's been run enough to get it properly warmed up fairly regularly, it should be fine, but there are all sorts of nightmares if not. Put your hand on the block and exhaust manifold before you see the engine start to make sure it's starting from cold. If it leaps into life and runs smoothly without any smoke once warm - a bit of white smoke when starting is normal on some engines, especially the Volvo 2000 series - it's probably fine, but give it a full service before going far.

Insurers will want new standing rigging, and budget for running rigging as well. Give the furler a spin to make sure it turns freely - you may get away with new bearings, but a new one isn't cheap. Also get the sails out and check 'em over. They may never have been set, but if they've been home for a few generations of mice...

Electronics - do they all work? Plotter - new charts as a minimum. I know the rocks don't move, but buoys do, as do sand banks

Water and diesel tanks? Both tend to corrode from the inside out.

Manky bilges are a sign of problems - where's the oil/diesel/water coming from?

Do all the seacocks work? Are any of them brass?

Steering - if it has a wheel, have the linkage/chains/cables been maintained?

What about the winches? If they're stiff, it may well just mean a good service, but it's one more thing on your "this is why I'm offering so little" list

Galley - pumps, taps, stove, fridge. All replaceable, but that's the thick end of another grand on the refit.

Well, I've done my very best to put you off such insanity, but have to confess that I've just bought a cat that's been rotting quietly for a few years, so if she still ticks your boxes when you've made as horrible naughty list as you possibly can, go for it, and the very best of luck!

 

[PlankWalker]

The Running Rigging if exposed to UV will be shot.

 

[Concerto]

More things on boats - including engines - die from underuse than overuse. If everything was put to bed properly, it should be fine, but how likely is that? If it's been run enough to get it properly warmed up fairly regularly, it should be fine, but there are all sorts of nightmares if not. Put your hand on the block and exhaust manifold before you see the engine start to make sure it's starting from cold. If it leaps into life and runs smoothly without any smoke once warm - a bit of white smoke when starting is normal on some engines, especially the Volvo 2000 series - it's probably fine, but give it a full service before going far.

Insurers will want new standing rigging, and budget for running rigging as well. Give the furler a spin to make sure it turns freely - you may get away with new bearings, but a new one isn't cheap. Also get the sails out and check 'em over. They may never have been set, but if they've been home for a few generations of mice...

Electronics - do they all work? Plotter - new charts as a minimum. I know the rocks don't move, but buoys do, as do sand banks

Water and diesel tanks? Both tend to corrode from the inside out.

Manky bilges are a sign of problems - where's the oil/diesel/water coming from?

Do all the seacocks work? Are any of them brass?

Steering - if it has a wheel, have the linkage/chains/cables been maintained?

What about the winches? If they're stiff, it may well just mean a good service, but it's one more thing on your "this is why I'm offering so little" list

Galley - pumps, taps, stove, fridge. All replaceable, but that's the thick end of another grand on the refit.

Well, I've done my very best to put you off such insanity, but have to confess that I've just bought a cat that's been rotting quietly for a few years, so if she still ticks your boxes when you've made as horrible naughty list as you possibly can, go for it, and the very best of luck!

I would add:

Is the keel rusty?

Any movement on the rudder bearings.

Do all the lights - internal and external.

Any leaks from deck fittings or windows.

Basically everything should be checked like calorifier, anchor winch, chain, etc.

Batteries, are they shot.

Toilet(s) are they working properly. Is the outlet hose getting blocked?

Minerva, you have not given us an idea as to the length and builder as these may bring additional things to check.

 

[Moodysailor]

I'm in agreement with above comments - ignore whatever hours are there and take everything on face value "as seen". If this is a significant investment, you are concerned about the engine and can't inspect it yourself to the level you require, have a local marine engineer carry out a mechanical inspection at the same time as the surveyor is on board. We used to do a lot of these when I was working as a marine engineer, the surveyors often appreciated us being on board as they could get a better insight into the mechanical systems that they mostly don't touch.

 

[Supertramp]

Whilst my current boat is *almost* perfect for what I want and need but my head has been turned by a boat launched in 1990 which has the potential to make cruising significantly more comfortable and is, on paper, affordable. She has the potential to be a forever boat - safe for the family for extended holidays with ample tankage for extended periods - new work from home could quite easily see me able to work from the boat for the summer, provided I can still get to the office for meetings when required.

Major concern is to date she has only 90 engine hours recorded - original engine and presumed legit figure. I gather the sails, standing & running rigging will all be original too.

The interior photos all look pretty tidy and well maintained, so it would appear that the boat certainly hasn't been neglected, presumably it has been someone's retirement play thing / man shed.

Question being, how likely is it that the engine / sails & standing rigging will be serviceable after being effectively unused for 30 years? Boat's a 40ft ketch so replacement would be a significant sum.

Not viewed the boat yet and not necessarily wanting to waste the brokers time at the moment.

Make a list as you go round of things to replace and repair, as per others lists in the post. Make an estimate of repair cost, double it and then add to the offer price. Double it because more stuff appears as you fix one thing. If it still makes sense, and you have the time to do the work, go ahead. Your boat will be well sorted and you will understand its workings.

 

[Stemar]

Make a list as you go round of things to replace and repair, as per others lists in the post. Make an estimate of repair cost, double it and then add to the offer price. Double it because more stuff appears as you fix one thing. If it still makes sense, and you have the time to do the work, go ahead. Your boat will be well sorted and you will understand its workings.

Don't forget to cost your time as well - and triple that. If the sums work out, you'll have a boat in great condition and, most of all, you'll know the systems inside out

 

[mattonthesea]

Minor in the grand scheme of things but our under used boat suffered a few issues: most of the instruments gave up the ghost quite quickly if not right away. The mast top wires had all worn away. The pump rubbers split so we couldn't empty the sink and the heads diverted to the bilge!!!
Worst of all though was the damper between engine and gearbox disintegrating whilst attempting complicated manoeuvres in Isle Dr Groix - probably lack of oil bath because not spun.

 

[oldharry]

As above, under use or lack of use is as big a killer as over-use. Even if the engine has been put to bed properly using anti rust fogging, orifices closed off, and so on, if its left to stand for more than a year or two, the seals will be hardening up from lack of use. Internal condensation may or may not be an issue too. If it has been run up once or twice a year to full working temprature much of this will have been avoided, provided it was properly protected after each time.

Likewise with the rig: has the mast been up all this time? Was the boat left afloat, in a marina, or on a mooring? A boat stored afloat, particualrly in an exposed spot will still have wear in the rigging as the mast is rocked around by wind and waves, depending on location. Same with the sails. Were they properly cleaned and stored? Or just folded and left below on board, or even bent on under their covers? If so, UV, heat and mosituire will have had some impact on the material, particularly if there is still salt in them from not being properly rinsed.

Without proper regular airing, and drying out, the accommodation may have become a breeding ground for nasty and difficult to eradicate nasties like mildew

Low usage is rarely a reason for upping the asking price, except in the mind of the seller!

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Likewise with the rig: has the mast been up all this time? Was the boat left afloat, in a marina, or on a mooring? A boat stored afloat, particualrly in an exposed spot will still have wear in the rigging as the mast is rocked around by wind and waves, depending on location. Same with the sails. Were they properly cleaned and stored? Or just folded and left below on board, or even bent on under their covers? If so, UV, heat and mosituire will have had some impact on the material, particularly if there is still salt in them from not being properly rinsed.

Without proper regular airing, and drying out, the accommodation may have become a breeding ground for nasty and difficult to eradicate nasties like mildew

Low usage is rarely a reason for upping the asking price, except in the mind of the seller!

+1 about rigging. I've just replaced most of my running rigging, and the worst parts were those exposed to the weather when not at sea. Further, standing rigging is subject to similar repetitive stresses while moored as when sailing; perhaps more so, as sailing imposes constant largish stresses while vibration and wind loads give constantly changing small stresses. Sails will not have had creases pulled out of them, sail covers will have UV damage and damage from bird droppings!

If the boat is seriously under used, I'd budget for replacing both standing and running rigging, and also any exposed canvas, with a contingency for sails.

 

[Caraway]

Engines really suffer if under-used. A year without running would mean the moving parts may be oil-free. Not particularly crank bearings as they are fairly drain down free, but cams, follower, rockers and cylinder bores all rely on splash lubrication. (a bit of oil is delivered to the rockers, usually, but not very well)

My wife got a small car which had only done 800 miles in its first 2 years. The short runs had created corrosion in the exhuast which had holes in it, at 800 miles. We serviced it thoroughly and set about running it in from scratch with plenty of long runs.

 

[Minerva]

Thank you all for your responses, sounds like there is a high probability of it turning into a money pit in short order.

Minerva, you have not given us an idea as to the length and builder as these may bring additional things to check.

It's this one Colvic Victor 40 Ketch For Sale, 12.22m, unknown year

I sail on the west coast of Scotland and some of the key criteria we have for the next boat is;
1) a raised saloon for views when sitting out the inevitable summer blow each cruise,
2) a bed my wife/I can get out with out clambering over one another,
3) a larger galley.
4) An anchor locker which can swallow 80m of chain without jamming / needing knocked over.

Most of which this boat ticks, al be it at the likely detriment of some sailing performance, but that doesn't really bother me too much (Theroetically - I've always had boats which sailed well...)

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Thank you all for your responses, sounds like there is a high probability of it turning into a money pit in short order.



It's this one Colvic Victor 40 Ketch For Sale, 12.22m, unknown year

I sail on the west coast of Scotland and three of the key criteria we have for the next boat is;
1) a raised saloon for views when sitting out the inevitable summer blow each cruise,
2) a bed my wife/I can get out with out clambering over one another,
3) a larger galley.
4) An anchor locker which can swallow 80m of chain without jamming / needing knocked over.

Most of which this boat ticks, al be it at the likely detriment of some sailing performance, but that doesn't really bother me too much (Theroetically - I've always had boats which sailed well...)

A very long time ago, in the 1980s, my wife and I and another couple chartered a Colvic based ketch not unlike that one; my memory is a bit hazy about the details of the boat, which came from Rhu. As I recall, it was comfortable, and it was easy to reduce sail by dropping the main. But it was definitely not close-winded, and the sailing performance was adequate, just.

To me, she looks over-priced, and not by a small amount.

 

[pvb]

Thank you all for your responses, sounds like there is a high probability of it turning into a money pit in short order.



It's this one Colvic Victor 40 Ketch For Sale, 12.22m, unknown year

The recently repainted non-slip looks OK, but the rest of it is rather shabby. It's a DIY completion, so there'll be all manner of horrors lurking under the surface. It won't sail well, as you've gathered. And it's silly money. If you could get it for less than half the asking price, it might, just might, start to make some sense for you.

 

[Tranona]

Thank you all for your responses, sounds like there is a high probability of it turning into a money pit in short order.

It's this one Colvic Victor 40 Ketch For Sale, 12.22m, unknown year

I sail on the west coast of Scotland and some of the key criteria we have for the next boat is;
1) a raised saloon for views when sitting out the inevitable summer blow each cruise,
2) a bed my wife/I can get out with out clambering over one another,
3) a larger galley.
4) An anchor locker which can swallow 80m of chain without jamming / needing knocked over.

Most of which this boat ticks, al be it at the likely detriment of some sailing performance, but that doesn't really bother me too much (Theroetically - I've always had boats which sailed well...)

Dream boat from the 1980s. Home completed as most were. Fits your brief well - always were popular in your part of the world. Being one owner (and builder?) it has not suffered from subsequent owners' "improvements" so a bit of a time warp. Unlike many boats for sale because the owner has given up, it is not full of junk, so at least you are starting with what you see, rather than having to dig under years of accumulated junk. You need to be practical and prepared to do all the work yourself to effectively recommission it, but if all the gear works then it is well equipped if not having all the latest goodies in the electronics department. Important to check the sails as a new suit would be in the £7-8k range.

Perhaps still a bit overpriced and I would think a budget assuming the sails are OK and no disaster with the engine you could be looking at £10-15k to bring it up to scratch - standing and running rigging being the biggest item. Only worth doing if it is a long term commitment as expenditure of that level would not change its market value much, and the market is very limited anyway. Survey essential and I would think an opening offer under £30k would be a good starting point. You have to love it first though because it is almost a one way commitment!

Hope this helps and good luck.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Thank you all for your responses, sounds like there is a high probability of it turning into a money pit in short order.

There are possibilities that some bits will cost you money, but don't be scared off by the doomsayers. A survey will find anything of concern.