Portuguese residency - current situation - advice needed

[Graham376]

Not sure that as a resident, your movements in and out of your host country will be recorded in your passport. Rather than your passport, your biometric residency permit will be used to track your movements.

Dear ***************

Thank you for contacting the Europe Direct Contact Centre and apologies for the late reply.

We have consulted the Directorate-General for Justice and Consumers (DG JUST). They can inform you that when transiting via another country than the Member State of residence, passports should not be stamped on entry/exit. Residence permit holders are not limited to the maximum period of stay of 90/180 days within the Schengen area as they have a right of residence going beyond these days in the Member State which issued the residence permit.

How will biometric card track movements when there are no internal borders to have it checked? Unlike a citizen card, it's not a travel document, passports will still have to be presented.

 

[nortada]

Dear ***************

Thank you for contacting the Europe Direct Contact Centre and apologies for the late reply.

We have consulted the Directorate-General for Justice and Consumers (DG JUST). They can inform you that when transiting via another country than the Member State of residence, passports should not be stamped on entry/exit. Residence permit holders are not limited to the maximum period of stay of 90/180 days within the Schengen area as they have a right of residence going beyond these days in the Member State which issued the residence permit.

How will biometric card track movements when there are no internal borders to have it checked? Unlike a citizen card, it's not a travel document, passports will still have to be presented.

Many thanks for this.

Fairly certain that you had the definitive answer tucked up your sleeve.?

 

[Graham376]

My question to the Contact Centre was actually about traveling overland by car to/from country of residence when (say) France would say on your return for the ferry, you've overstayed!

It does however leave me wondering if for instance someone with Portuguese residence could head off east into the Med for 90 days and then when time has run out, use the "in transit" rules for a slow trip back to country of residence

 

[webcraft]

My residency certificate is just a piece of A4 paper. It does not look like a document I could use to travel with easily.

When/how can I change it to a biometric card that will allow travel in and out of the country?

Will I still need to get my UK passport stamped leaving the UK but not on entering Portugal?

- W

 

[Graham376]

My residency certificate is just a piece of A4 paper. It does not look like a document I could use to travel with easily.
When/how can I change it to a biometric card that will allow travel in and out of the country?
Will I still need to get my UK passport stamped leaving the UK but not on entering Portugal?
- W

Residence papers are not travel documents, you will have to travel on your passport. Possibly, residence status may be entered in passport, as with visas. We will have to wait and see about stamping, that was the norm before we joined EU. Not sure if paper 5 year certificate will be changed for biometric but permanent residence cards will be.

 

[webcraft]

Residence papers are not travel documents, you will have to travel on your passport. Possibly, residence status may be entered in passport, as with visas. We will have to wait and see about stamping, that was the norm before we joined EU. Not sure if paper 5 year certificate will be changed for biometric but permanent residence cards will be.

OK, that's fine but . . . if passport is stamped coming into Portugal and (say) I am in Portugal 3 months then go to Spain, what happens? Passport will show I have already been in Schengen 3 months.

- W

 

[RAI]

Even if not stamped, your passport will be scanned and the airline's passenger manifest passed to the Schengen database. Whether anything is done with the information is another thing. In a couple of years the passenger reporting system will be introduced, so more data and more control.

 

[nortada]

OK, that's fine but . . . if passport is stamped coming into Portugal and (say) I am in Portugal 3 months then go to Spain, what happens? Passport will show I have already been in Schengen 3 months.

- W

Truth is, you are in uncharted waters (especially where Portugal is concerned).

The second video in the link below (especially the Q&A session) touches on the issue of biometric residency permits in Portugal: British Embassy Videos on Residency, Health Cover, Driving Licenses & The Latest Advice From The British Ambassador..

As you see, responsibility for issuing residency is being transferred from the local camaras to SEF, who will issue the biometric permit but when is anybodies guess. Great bit of timing on Portugal’s part.

As I read it, the existing A4 forum will remain valid until the new permit is issued, even if it is out of date. Big question, are we supposed to contact our local SEF or wait until they email us Processing the new card requires finger prints and an official photograph so will require a visit in person to SEF.

Given the current ever changing Covid restrictions, SEF appear to be overwhelmed so don’t hold your breath.

For the Schengen database to function as intended and confirm Brits are observing the 90/180 day rule, I understand that these biometric cards will be ‘read’ on leaving or entering the Schengen Zone. Can’t see how this can work with the A4 form so all permanent and temporary British residents will have to be given the new permit.

Travelling in and out of the Schengen Zone early next year could be interesting but knowing Portugal, I suspect the whole thing will be kicked into the long grass and we will just be required to show our existing residency documentation, with our passports, on arrival or when leaving Portugal.

It has been suggested that to ease the administrative load, SEF will wait until existing documents expire before issuing replacement biometric cards - it would certainly ease the initial work load but could extend the issue of biometric permits by years.

I understand that some Schengen States (Spain) have already issued the biometric permit so it could be interesting trying to enter these countries with an out of date bit of Portuguese A4.

As said, post the transition period, travel could be interesting so our personal solution is to stay put in Portugal until the vaccine reduces the pressures of Covid but watch how other traveller fare. Reckon earliest we will next leave Portugal (flying direct to the U.K.) will be around Easter (April 2021). By then, hopefully the procedures will be well established.

Would be very grateful for any updates or extra information.

 

[nortada]

Even if not stamped, your passport will be scanned and the airline's passenger manifest passed to the Schengen database. Whether anything is done with the information is another thing. In a couple of years the passenger reporting system will be introduced, so more data and more control.

Possible but an awful lot of extra administration that the biometric card is supposed to resolve.

As I understand it, the Schengen Database has yet to go operational.

If Portugal drags it’s heels on issuing the biometric permit, a two year lead in could be rather optimistic.

As I see it, provided we travellers obey the rules, additional controls should be minimal.

Wonder if the airlines will require residency details when booking a flight to ensure that they will not be ‘landed’ with dealing with travellers, who have been refused entry at their Schengen destination

The potential for a mega cock-up is enormous; especially around peak holiday periods.?

 

[RAI]

Passenger Name Record (PNR) - Migration and Home Affairs - European Commission
Passenger Name Records and EU Crime Prevention

 

[webcraft]

The purposes for which the data is being recorded do not include schengen time monitoring.

Not saying it can't be used for that just that it is not its purpose.

- W

 

[RAI]

The purposes for which the data is being recorded do not include schengen time monitoring.
Not saying it can't be used for that just that it is not its purpose.
- W

This has a a fair bit of information
Schengen Calculator - Calculate Your Legal Short-Stay in Europe
and here
What are the consequences of overstaying in Schengen Area? - SchengenVisaInfo.com
"First thing that you should know, is that an overstayed visa never goes unnoticed. The immigration authorities have registered in their databases every person that enters and leaves the Schengen, and every overstaying, even just for a day, is recorded."

 

[webcraft]

So how are Portuguese residents with UK passports travelling to other Schengen countries accounted for?

- W

 

[Graham376]

So how are Portuguese residents with UK passports travelling to other Schengen countries accounted for?
- W

Until we hear something official, my guess is that residence paper/card will have to be presented to avoid being nicked for overstaying.

 

[webcraft]

Until we hear something official, my guess is that residence paper/card will have to be presented to avoid being nicked for overstaying.

OK, so if travelling from, say, Portugal to Spain, do I go through the EU queue or the non-EU queue?

- W

 

[Graham376]

OK, so if travelling from, say, Portugal to Spain, do I go through the EU queue or the non-EU queue?
- W

If flying, then non-EU queue, determined by your passport. By road, there aren't any border checks.

 

[webcraft]

If flying, then non-EU queue, determined by your passport. By road, there aren't any border checks.

So I fly to Spain, syay a month, go fro there to Portugal (no border checks), stay for four months, go back across to Spain, passport shows I have now been in Schengen for five months and I have no proof otherwise?

Sounds like a recipe for a potential shambles.

- W

 

[andyc352]

So I fly to Spain, syay a month, go fro there to Portugal (no border checks), stay for four months, go back across to Spain, passport shows I have now been in Schengen for five months and I have no proof otherwise?

Sounds like a recipe for a potential shambles.

- W

It’s brexit, so of course it’s a complete shambles. Come “bidet” in a few weeks time, like me, you now have your Portuguese residency “insurance policy” to fall back on. No more can be done but await developments so it’s all rather pointless speculating at the moment. Enjoy Portugal.

Andy (Gyrodata)

 

[GHA]

If flying, then non-EU queue, determined by your passport. By road, there aren't any border checks.

Is that possible when EU flights don't have any passport control? How does the rest of the world do it - you have to go search out someone in a uniform to walk you through?

 

[greeny]

Is that possible when EU flights don't have any passport control? How does the rest of the world do it - you have to go search out someone in a uniform to walk you through?

Sounds like it, if you want your passport un-stamping, i.e. your schengen clock stopping. That could be fun and confusion in Faro. Otherwise your clock will be ticking all the time your in your country of residence and that wouldn't be helpful to future travel plans. It's full of discrepancies and questions (and a few loopholes) that we won't know the answer to until someone does it for the first time after the New Year. Interesting times ahead. I wonder if they will be ready for us on the 1st January.