Tranona
Well-known member
Well, I assume you are a member so if it affects you perhaps you should give Gus Lewis a call.
Portugal - new RYA guidance
- Thread starter rallyveteran
- Start date
Well, I assume you are a member so if it affects you perhaps you should give Gus Lewis a call.
Tomahawk
Well-known member
I am not a member for the simple reason I do not want to spend money on an outfit that does not do anything for me.. If the RYA was half effective it would have written to the Protugese govenment a long time ago to seek legal clarificatioon of the basis for local interpretation of "safety" issues.. BEFORE any members were subject to unwaranted fines.. As it is apparant from this thread that nothing has been done, I would be wasting my money to join...
Were that it otherwise..
Were that it otherwise..
DownWest
Well-known member
Rules for boats are the same as for cars and planes. A while back, they started inflicting a tax (similar to the fees for local boats) on visitors that stayed over 180 days. Based on a calculation of weight, length, horse power and a couple of others. Their track record on following EU rules is patchy at best. Anybody tried to import a car recently? I believe it is still difficult and expensive.
DW
DW
Tony Cross
Well-known member
We ran into a similar issue (ie. more than 180 days stay) in Greece a while back. As I understand the rules (and I did do some research at the time) an EU citizen is allowed to freely remain in any EU country for 180 days, but after that period they are supposed to register. This is not the same as applying for residency. Registration does not affect residence, it's merely a mechanism that enables EU countries to know who is living in them long-term. I have Greek registration because I spend more than 180 days here but I am not resident in Greece.
GrahamM376
New member
If you were a member and had seen correspondence to/from RYA & Portuguese authorities, you would know the RYA have been trying to sort it for some time, starting when they received the first complaint. Do you think they should write to every country in the world to find out what their regulations are? I think not.
UNCLOS is quite clear about a coastal state's right to enforce their own regulations on vessels not on innocent passage -
Article 33. Contiguous zone
1. In a zone contiguous to its territorial sea, described as the contiguous zone, the coastal State may exercise the control necessary to:
(a) prevent infringement of its customs, fiscal, immigration or sanitary laws and regulations within its territory or territorial sea;
(b) punish infringement of the above laws and regulations committed within its territory or territorial sea.
Portugal was until recent times a dictatorship, laws are antiquated and need lawyers and notaries to sort out what we would determine "simple" things in the UK. Impossible in most cases to just pick the phone up and get an answer from a government department which is overstaffed and everyone trying to justify his/her existence.
There are certainly areas in the RYA's statement which don't make sense, particularly the 180 day rule and I suspect this is because the maritime authorities have made a time limit with no knowledge of the rules applying to immigration. I, and I suspect other members, have written to the RYA seeking clarification.
jimbaerselman
New member
Oh dear, we're muddling the rules for "things" (means of transport, which includes boats), and the rules for "people" (tax residence and administrative residence for individuals).
If you're gluttons for punishment, read [url]http://jimbsail.info/going-foreign/time-abroad[/URL]. This covers the issues.
EU law allows that EU registered "means of transport" (MoT) may stay for up to 180 days continuously in another EU country without notifying the new host country's authorities. Any longer, and the host country's regulations then may apply. It is an open question as to whether required safety equipment can be defined at entry; thus cars are required to carry warning triangles etc, and France fines carriage of out of date flares (I must hide those old trousers . . .) irrespective of how long the vessel has been in the country.
Boats are ignored in many countries There aren't that many of them, and they don't do too much damage. Cars are not ignored. They can do far more damage.
The MoT don't have to be re-registered in the new country, that choice is left open.
Spain over-stepped that mark for a period by requiring boats to be re-registered. After a court challenge, that was rescinded, and instead, Spain required (tax residents only) to report if their boat was going to stay longer than 180 days - and a penalty "pollution tax" if they weren't told within 30 days.
So it seems Portugal's revised interpretation is within EU law, and they're being nice about the equipment to be carried. Well done the RYA in getting them to ease up.
If you're gluttons for punishment, read [url]http://jimbsail.info/going-foreign/time-abroad[/URL]. This covers the issues.
EU law allows that EU registered "means of transport" (MoT) may stay for up to 180 days continuously in another EU country without notifying the new host country's authorities. Any longer, and the host country's regulations then may apply. It is an open question as to whether required safety equipment can be defined at entry; thus cars are required to carry warning triangles etc, and France fines carriage of out of date flares (I must hide those old trousers . . .) irrespective of how long the vessel has been in the country.
Boats are ignored in many countries There aren't that many of them, and they don't do too much damage. Cars are not ignored. They can do far more damage.
The MoT don't have to be re-registered in the new country, that choice is left open.
Spain over-stepped that mark for a period by requiring boats to be re-registered. After a court challenge, that was rescinded, and instead, Spain required (tax residents only) to report if their boat was going to stay longer than 180 days - and a penalty "pollution tax" if they weren't told within 30 days.
So it seems Portugal's revised interpretation is within EU law, and they're being nice about the equipment to be carried. Well done the RYA in getting them to ease up.
rallyveteran
New member
I haven't seen any indication that they are being nice about the equipment to be carried. The Portuguese are still requiring included British vessels to be equipped to Ocean standard (e.g. 6 parachute flares, hydrostatic liferaft release, HF receiver etc.) even if they never go further than a mile from the Portuguese coast. They do appear to have made a concession about the vessels to which this applies, though as the time limit cited by the RYA is a total of 180 days in a 365 day period while you, probably correctly, refer to a continuous period, we aren't certain how extensive this concession is.
I'm certain that if you were responsible for writing the relevant section of the RYA's website you would have found a clearer way of expressing the limit than to say it isin line with the criteria for non-nationals to become responsible for property taxes payment in Portugal. It is hardly surprising that RYA members are confused by this.
nortada
Well-known member
Hello - must be that time of year again!
Quoting the RYA opinion to the gun toting Maritime Police or Portuguese Navy should bring an 'interesting response'.
Agree with chinita, toe the line be as friendly as possible & agree with everything suggested & you will probably come through unscathed.
One thing they are hot on, Portuguese Light dues that can be got from any port captain. €2 if in transit or €11 if stopping over - the hassle is greater than the cost.
Producing this will place you in good odour with your captors!
For the record, last year we tried to find any foreign boat that had actually been fined but got a nil result.
By the way, believe a visitor (not boat) is supposed to register (at no cost) with the Portuguese authorities after 90 days contiguous in the country - but nobody does.
There is a boat tax that can be applied after 183 days contiguous in a calendar year.
Individuals are supposed to register for tax purposes after 183 total in a calender year - very few yotties do.
Don't know where this 180 days quoted has come from? A misprint?
Finally, the Lagos navigators have been debating this issue for the past decade so believe their advice is well founded.
Hope this helps.
nortada
Well-known member
For those who wish to read themselves in on this topic try the following 3 threads (only take you about a month to wade through them):
More Portuguese hassle.
Portuguese Marine Police fining foreigners.
The Truth About Sailing On The Algarve,
Hopefully, if not rotting in a Lisbon Jail, RAFsailor will join the debate - always good fun.
LOL
More Portuguese hassle.
Portuguese Marine Police fining foreigners.
The Truth About Sailing On The Algarve,
Hopefully, if not rotting in a Lisbon Jail, RAFsailor will join the debate - always good fun.
LOL
Last edited:
Blue5
New member
I'd forget the threads too much misinformation, just read the RYA and Lagos Navigators information on the subject.
Regarding the "nil fines" my experience was that the authorities would rather give miscreants the chance to rectify any errors than impose fines for which I am grateful.
jimbaerselman
New member
Agree. It's best to quote EU directives, and I'm not sure the RYA has quite grasped that this is what is behind all these "time" issues. The Cruising Association has a firmer grip on this.
Yes, that seems to be the case. Visitors on arrival are given a talk about requirements, asked to fit missing kit, and told to pay their €2 - at the next port if at sea.
That is an EU wide directive which applies to all EU countries. The purpose is to transfer administrative responsiblity from one country to another so that an internal EU migrant changing residence can obtain health, schooling and other benefits under the same conditions that local residents can.
The EU directive allows that local circulation taxes may be levied on any means of transport which, registered in another EU country, stays more than 180 days continuously in another country. I wasn't aware that Portugal levied a circulation tax on boats - other than the two rates of lighthouse tax. Must go and do my homework!
Yes. And even if they don't, they become tax resident. The tax authorities may assume you are tax resident anyway, until you prove otherwise.
It's a "things" thing (customs), as a part from a "people" thing (immigration & taxes). EU wording actually often uses the rather flexible "3 months" or "6 months" in a lot of their time definitions, which are then often converted to 90 days or 180 days in local legislation.
They've been enormously helpful in describing how the Portuguese interpret EU directives. As I've mentioned before, all these time issues are EU wide, and are described at http://jimbsail.info/going-foreign/time-abroad
Last edited:
25931
Well-known member
Jimb - The "Imposto único de circulação" most certainly applies to vessels but as I've always been in the habit of nipping over to Spain I've never had to pay.
Surely the Portuguese authoritioes do have moral grounds for being concerned about the safety of boats which they might be required to save?
Surely the Portuguese authoritioes do have moral grounds for being concerned about the safety of boats which they might be required to save?
rallyveteran
New member
If the stoppages had anything to do with safety, you would expect to find them all round the Portuguese coast, especially in Madeira and the Azores where the risk of an expensive Portuguese rescue would be that much greater. However the checks all seem to have taken place within a mile of the Algarve coast where you would think that the risk my yacht might present through having only four red parachute flares, rather than the required six, might be one that the Portuguese nation could tolerate.
As it is the Portuguese have chosen to exempt vessels in their waters for 180 days or less (by a definition yet to be tied down) so they have shown that this has nothing to do with boats they might be required to save, but is all to do with bureaucracy and control.
25931
Well-known member
I can't remember seeing a report of a foreign yacht needing rescue in the waters of either the Açores or Madeira but it is far from being unknown round continental Portugal.
GrahamM376
New member
I've had a reply to my email to the RYA. I asked if the 180 day rule was consecutive or cumulative in a 365 day period and, whether they would still class us as "ocean" as far as equipment is concerned. This is their reply:-
The exact wording the Director General of the Autoridade Maritima sent was, " The result was the clarification that Portuguese rules should apply only for stays longer than a total of 180 days in a 365 day period, which is the criteria for non nationals to become responsible for property taxes payment in Portugal". I would suggest that boaters focus on the 180 days in a 365 day period rather than the latter part of the statement, which I believe was simply intended to give an indication of why they had selected a total of 180 days in a 365 day period.
It is important note that although the Portuguese Authorities have recognised the difficulties compliance with Portuguese law presented for non-Portuguese flagged boats, and have indicated their intention to relax their application of the law for foreign flagged pleasure boats on short stays in Portugal, the law itself has not been changed.
We can only hope that this decision will be promulgated by the Portuguese authorities and that UK boaters will not encounter the same difficulties this year as they have in the past.
I’m afraid we cannot provide answers to the more detailed questions in your emails.
I went to pay light dues today and, unlike last year, was not given a list of safety equipment, although they know we are based here
The exact wording the Director General of the Autoridade Maritima sent was, " The result was the clarification that Portuguese rules should apply only for stays longer than a total of 180 days in a 365 day period, which is the criteria for non nationals to become responsible for property taxes payment in Portugal". I would suggest that boaters focus on the 180 days in a 365 day period rather than the latter part of the statement, which I believe was simply intended to give an indication of why they had selected a total of 180 days in a 365 day period.
It is important note that although the Portuguese Authorities have recognised the difficulties compliance with Portuguese law presented for non-Portuguese flagged boats, and have indicated their intention to relax their application of the law for foreign flagged pleasure boats on short stays in Portugal, the law itself has not been changed.
We can only hope that this decision will be promulgated by the Portuguese authorities and that UK boaters will not encounter the same difficulties this year as they have in the past.
I’m afraid we cannot provide answers to the more detailed questions in your emails.
I went to pay light dues today and, unlike last year, was not given a list of safety equipment, although they know we are based here
rallyveteran
New member
I've had essentially the same answer.
The exact wording the Director General of the Autoridade Maritima sent was, " The result was the clarification that Portuguese rules should apply only for stays longer than a total of 180 days in a 365 day period, which is the criteria for non nationals to become responsible for property taxes payment in Portugal". I would suggest that boaters focus on the 180 days in a 365 day period rather than the latter part of the statement, which I believe was simply intended to give an indication of why they had selected a total of 180 days in a 365 day period.
It is important note that although the Portuguese Authorities have recognised the difficulties compliance with Portuguese law presented for non-Portuguese flagged boats, and have indicated their intention to relax their application of the law for foreign flagged pleasure boats on short stays in Portugal, the law itself has not been changed.
We can only hope that this decision will be promulgated by the Portuguese authorities and that UK boaters will not encounter the same difficulties this year as they have in the past.
As this avoids the continuous v total question it is useless to me, but as I haven't been told they won't answer any more questions I will write back and point this out.
The exact wording the Director General of the Autoridade Maritima sent was, " The result was the clarification that Portuguese rules should apply only for stays longer than a total of 180 days in a 365 day period, which is the criteria for non nationals to become responsible for property taxes payment in Portugal". I would suggest that boaters focus on the 180 days in a 365 day period rather than the latter part of the statement, which I believe was simply intended to give an indication of why they had selected a total of 180 days in a 365 day period.
It is important note that although the Portuguese Authorities have recognised the difficulties compliance with Portuguese law presented for non-Portuguese flagged boats, and have indicated their intention to relax their application of the law for foreign flagged pleasure boats on short stays in Portugal, the law itself has not been changed.
We can only hope that this decision will be promulgated by the Portuguese authorities and that UK boaters will not encounter the same difficulties this year as they have in the past.
As this avoids the continuous v total question it is useless to me, but as I haven't been told they won't answer any more questions I will write back and point this out.
GrahamM376
New member
If pulled by the police, which we haven't been in 6 years here, I will argue that we assumed the same rules as for the cruising tax apply - 183 days stay consecutively in a calendar year. When we paid light dues today, we had to produce marina receipts to prove we had been out of the country. No proof would have entailed paying the cruising tax as well but that wouldn't break the bank anyway.
chinita
Well-known member
It may have been the reply from the Director General of the Autoridade Maritima but, I would suggest, he is wrong.
Laura Nineham
New member
Hi everyone,
We've had a complaint about copyright infringement from the RYA so i've had to pull the first few posts which copy the RYA's text verbatim. Please don't copy and paste text that sits behind the member zone as we'll have to pull it.
Thanks,
Laura
We've had a complaint about copyright infringement from the RYA so i've had to pull the first few posts which copy the RYA's text verbatim. Please don't copy and paste text that sits behind the member zone as we'll have to pull it.
Thanks,
Laura
rallyveteran
New member
The final word from the RYA in an email to me:
Our understanding of the policy decision, outlined in the correspondence we received from the Director General of the Autoridade Marítima, is it is intended to offer a concession to UK flagged vessels that are short term visitors in Portuguese waters. Those yachts that you describe as crossing the border for a short period of time every 6 months simply to evade the payment of the Circulation Tax are clearly not short term visitors to Portugal. As such these yachts will be expected to comply with Portuguese legislation.
My reaction to this is:
(i) by using the word evade rather than avoid the RYA are nailing their colours to the mast. To put it in other words if you go abroad you deserve what is coming to you
(ii) Our understanding means this is the RYA's best guess; They're not going to do any more; and you'll have to rely on a more thorough organisation like the CA or Lagos Navigators to bottom this out
(iii) I am still none the wiser why the Portuguese would have said that for a piece of property to be in Portugal for a total of 180 days in a rolling period of 365 is the criteria for non nationals to become responsible for property taxes payment in Portugal.
Our understanding of the policy decision, outlined in the correspondence we received from the Director General of the Autoridade Marítima, is it is intended to offer a concession to UK flagged vessels that are short term visitors in Portuguese waters. Those yachts that you describe as crossing the border for a short period of time every 6 months simply to evade the payment of the Circulation Tax are clearly not short term visitors to Portugal. As such these yachts will be expected to comply with Portuguese legislation.
My reaction to this is:
(i) by using the word evade rather than avoid the RYA are nailing their colours to the mast. To put it in other words if you go abroad you deserve what is coming to you
(ii) Our understanding means this is the RYA's best guess; They're not going to do any more; and you'll have to rely on a more thorough organisation like the CA or Lagos Navigators to bottom this out
(iii) I am still none the wiser why the Portuguese would have said that for a piece of property to be in Portugal for a total of 180 days in a rolling period of 365 is the criteria for non nationals to become responsible for property taxes payment in Portugal.