Portrait of the ideal boat.

[Sybarite]

I was lucky enough to sail with the 'keen' owner of a HR49 which we thrashed very hard-hard enough to windward to have the deck hatches leak, all the drawers in the cabin fly out until roped up, the hull banged and slammed and flexed, bust a spectra line, autopilot wouldn't cope, staysail and part furled ( mast furler)main did the business and we kept powering to windward...but the wonder of wonders was the protection given by the fixed dodger, the spray really hurt when you exposed your head ( real wet day motorbike open-face helmet stuff) and the wind was very tiring..

When I bought my current R36 I had been strongly advised to think Salar40 for long legged comfortable 4season cruising but I just don't like steering from an enclosed bulkhead wheel when I want to steer for fun, just a personal preference.
Anyway, i always assumed I would be designing and building an elegant-but detachable-hardtop with glass windows n all but in 4 years I have not once put on oilskin trousers despite several upwind passages with two reefs and staysail. ( and windvane or a/p)
Not to say I won't one day, but I am sure it will look just fine if and when.( And I am a complete design snob, I cut off the back of my last AWB cos it was just short, fat high and a bit well fugly, drew the lines out, moved the rudder, blah blah, better looking better behaved and lots of 'elegant' praises..
My point? With grp boats you can do anything you like to them. Or leave them completely standard to assist resale, the trick is good design should look as though it was always there, and the execution of same should reflect that.

Some Salars have a wheel on the aft deck as well. Especially the Australian built ones where production continued long after the demise of the English one.

 

[Greenheart]

Hard to believe that a really rugged, rigid yet removable/stowable windscreen/dodger structure can't easily be constructed for retro-fitting to various designs which, as built, otherwise expose their shivering crews to season-shortening wind-chill misery.

The Salar 40's open-backed steering shelter gains points for not restricting sail-control, as an enclosed wheelhouse would...

...and I don't think its squared-off height remotely diminishes the yacht's visual appeal in any way; this vessel is no racing lightweight, and the acceptance by her designer of the shelter's windage, reflects her purposefully-robust style - she'll look after you. I like that.

I like those teak decks, too...

 

[Tranona]

The wheelhouse on that one suits partly because the designer had a very good eye for things and that style of boat carries it well. Have a look at the Moody Carbineer (same designer) to see how you can also get a good looking deck house.

Many people have put fixed shelters on other boats - 31' Westerlys for example but mostly they look ugly because the proportions are all wrong. Again if you want to see how it can be done elegantly on a smaller boat look at Maurice Griffiths design (which he had built for himself) called Kylix. Several sister ships built at 27', but the best is a "stretched" version at 29' and slightly wider that was recently for sale in Essex - but I think sold.

You would not like the teak decks if you owned the boat when they get knackered, which they will inevitably. That type of deck is best on other peoples' boats, or even better just in photos!

 

[Blueboatman]

Some Salars have a wheel on the aft deck as well. Especially the Australian built ones where production continued long after the demise of the English one.

Although I was aware of the Aus ones( some v nice examples, what an excuse to fly out and deliver a new boat home eh?)I have neve seen one yet with an act wheel. Great idea. Just goes to show you can do absurdly anything with a stock GRP hull, given a modicum of time and patience.

Re Dan. Is that one still for sale? The sloop rigged ones a bit rarer, iirc that one was in Ireland after some long trips...the teak is massively thick though at least one was fastened from below, which is...interesting

 

[Monique]

Monique,

Do you have a source for that news? Is it Allures that went into receivership? Or are you refering to the reason garcia was taken over by Allures? Also, I think Alubat has new owners since a year or so.

I also visited the 45 in Southampton and was very impressed (had a long look at the adhesive/connection between the alu hull and grp deck). The owner had looked at both Boreal and the Allures and decided on the Allures as it was slightly bigger and the contruction time slot was 9 months versus something like 2 years....sounded very happy...

i was told yesterday by an informed broker...

I too was impressed; I went so far as to have one specced out to give me an idea of price.. hull colour was chosen as canary yellow

Became very VERY expensive

 

[BrianH]

Re Dan. Is that one still for sale? The sloop rigged ones a bit rarer, iirc that one was in Ireland after some long trips...the teak is massively thick though at least one was fastened from below, which is...interesting

My friend has just put his sloop-rigged Salar 40 up for sale, sadly he and his wife have reached that age when they have to give up. He is a typically thorough German who has kept Antares in pristine condition - she is immaculate. A beautiful ship.

She is lying afloat in my marina here in NE Italy - whoever buys her will get a bargain. Details here.

 

[westernman]

I sail in the Med. I have only once wished that I had some kind of wheel house or spray dodger. Generally if the weather is too nasty to be helming outside, I want to be tucked in an anchorage somewhere.

Then I will be below and nice and toasty with the diesel heater blazing away, some good music on the CD player and some decent red wine.

However, if I was sailing in the Artic, then I would want a different boat! Although there is some crazy guy with a pilot cutter who has sailed in the artic and even fell in and went on a marathon swim in freezing water to catch up with his boat again.

Anyway, sailing in the Artic is not my idea of fun and I won't be doing that any time soon - although I do understand the attraction (when the sun is out).

 

[Blueboatman]

Re Barnacle. That is indeed a beautifully presented example of the marque

 

[Greenheart]

Re Dan. Is that one still for sale?

Alas, no, as far as the website tells... http://www.eirport.com/petritis/index.html

Certainly a nice yacht. I like the screen - reminds me of a Hornby freight locomotive, many, many years ago...

In respect of teak decks, I know they're a pain, but I'd be denying the plain truth if I pretended to want Treadmaster instead...I might in due course be forced to accept a durable, dependable alternative, but every time I came alongside a teakster, I'd feel soulless and dull.

I asked the Tek-Dek chap at the boatshow, why they can't make their product in varying shades - to more closely imitate the real thing. He replied that they include a sort of blemishing on the finish, for the same reason. Easier just to make different shades, I'd have thought!

 

[chris46]

ill be happy with anything that has a sail and is over 20 feet long ,a bed,a cooker and some heat,thatll do.
oh and some lekky for my laptop

 

[prv]

ill be happy with anything that has a sail and is over 20 feet long ,a bed,a cooker and some heat,thatll do.
oh and some lekky for my laptop

Don't think most of the boats you've looked at will run to heating. Powering a laptop for any length of time could be tricky too unless you're somewhere you can plug into the mains.

Sorry

Pete

 

[chris46]

Don't think most of the boats you've looked at will run to heating. Powering a laptop for any length of time could be tricky too unless you're somewhere you can plug into the mains.

Sorry

Pete

wood burner will do pete.
i hope

 

[Sybarite]

The wheelhouse on that one suits partly because the designer had a very good eye for things and that style of boat carries it well. Have a look at the Moody Carbineer (same designer) to see how you can also get a good looking deck house.

Many people have put fixed shelters on other boats - 31' Westerlys for example but mostly they look ugly because the proportions are all wrong. Again if you want to see how it can be done elegantly on a smaller boat look at Maurice Griffiths design (which he had built for himself) called Kylix. Several sister ships built at 27', but the best is a "stretched" version at 29' and slightly wider that was recently for sale in Essex - but I think sold.

You would not like the teak decks if you owned the boat when they get knackered, which they will inevitably. That type of deck is best on other peoples' boats, or even better just in photos!

The Kylix is a great example of what can be done. He designed the height so that when sitting he could look through the windscreen, and when standing he could look over the top.

 

[Sybarite]

Hmm...not completely sure I follow the philosophy there. Granted, acknowledgement of attractive/appealing hulls/superstructures/rigs varies over time, but already today, we can look at rigs of 20/40/80 or more years ago and form strong likes and dislikes...

...so, no reason to assume that what is seen as ugly or awkward today, will necessarily wear well. On the other hand, I reckon sheer unpretentious practicality has a powerful honest appeal - I don't really dislike the way Catalacs look, however inorganic their proportions.

I think Club Med is one of those vessels I'd prefer to be inside, looking out of, than have to behold from the near distance...

.

I had in mind his Barbados 38' and the 45'.

When designers gave up overhangs, short waterlines, curvy sheerlines and flush decks, they were collectively bending over to be kicked and bossed by the great god Efficiency, for whom any and every possible performance-improving sacrifice must apparently be made. .

Marina prices probably come into consideration.

All we can do with the industry as it is, is suggest that a definite (if diminutive) portion of the market, would greatly value the designer's best plan for making just two people comfortable aboard a 30-footer, two couples comfortable on a 40-footer, three aboard 50-ft...

What about this for comfort strictly for 2 people only. When it came out it was FF 1 200 000 about £150 k. Only two saloon berths!

http://www.bateaux-occasion-atlantique.com/index.php/voiliers/amel-fango-luxe/

Please note bow and stern thrusters.

 

[snooks]

i was told yesterday by an informed broker...

Allures/Garcia (all part of the same group) seemed in fine fettle when we did the test on the Allures 45 last month, Garcia have just launched their million pound plus trawler 54 in Cannes and then Annapolis. And Allures had a number of boats in build and have invested in bringing all their production in house to control the supply and quality.

So I would be surprised what you have heard is true, that's not to say it isn't, but I'll honestly be surprised if it is.

I've asked Chris Beeson to look into this one tomorrow.

 

[Sybarite]

Allures/Garcia (all part of the same group) seemed in fine fettle when we did the test on the Allures 45 last month, Garcia have just launched their million pound plus trawler 54 in Cannes and then Annapolis. And Allures had a number of boats in build and have invested in bringing all their production in house to control the supply and quality.

So I would be surprised what you have heard is true, that's not to say it isn't, but I'll honestly be surprised if it is.

I've asked Chris Beeson to look into this one tomorrow.

I'd be surprised too because they have recently announced the models they are sending to the Salon Nautique.

 

[snooks]

The brochure calls this the "owner's version"; don't they make them like this anymore?

Most manufacturers do indeed still make an owners version as you describe, without 8 berths in a 34 footer...but acknowledging that would have killed this thread so your point was ignored ...much more fun to bash modern designs don't you think??

At first glance the majority of buyers associate berths with space. That 34 footer has room for six people, but this one has room for eight!...which is bigger?

So the more berths a boat has, the bigger it has to be. This is why the majority of boats we test (usualy their demonstrators) from the bigger manufactures have twin aft cabins. To convince peeps it's a bigger boat than it's rivals.

Just because a boat can sleep 8 it doesn't mean it has to, a lot of the twin aft cabins are bought by parents with two children....So the parents can sleep uninterrupted up the front and the kids can have two cabins the same at the back, no arguments about which is the better cabin, and no sleeping bags in the saloon.

It's all very well for the author of the letter to pluck numbers from the air and make assumptions about the demographics of the boat buying public from the people they meet, but they are only meeting the type of people who do the same type of sailing they do. Where as there are other people who buy boats that don't fit their criteria, and do a totally different kind of sailing, who the author might not meet.

If the boat manufactures have got it so wrong, in the authors eyes, why are they still successfully selling the type of boats that the authors believes people don't want?

 

[doug748]

If the boat manufactures have got it so wrong, in the authors eyes, why are they still successfully selling the type of boats that the authors believes people don't want?

Yes.

Cheap sells. Despite the collapse of local shopping and the decline of city centres there is one shop that universally thrives - the Pound Shop.

If things are big and cheap, so much the better. You can only build a really inexpensive boat with the minimum of options, so the main players cannot be faulted for chasing the market.

If you are well larded with cash I guess you can have what you want.

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

That was last week's discussion when I said you could buy a Feeling 44 for less than the depreciation of the Rustler over 4 years.

Just read that.

You may may be interested to know that there are many Rustlers that after 8 or so years have sold for the same amount that the were originally bought for. I know this as I tracked every sale made for a number of years. Of course there is a cost of money, but that aside.

Four years may be a little tight, but unless you can find a nearly free Feeling your suggestion is well out.

 

[Grumpybear]

Most manufacturers do indeed still make an owners version as you describe, without 8 berths in a 34 footer...but acknowledging that would have killed this thread so your point was ignored ...much more fun to bash modern designs don't you think??

At first glance the majority of buyers associate berths with space. That 34 footer has room for six people, but this one has room for eight!...which is bigger?

So the more berths a boat has, the bigger it has to be. This is why the majority of boats we test (usualy their demonstrators) from the bigger manufactures have twin aft cabins. To convince peeps it's a bigger boat than it's rivals.

Just because a boat can sleep 8 it doesn't mean it has to, a lot of the twin aft cabins are bought by parents with two children....So the parents can sleep uninterrupted up the front and the kids can have two cabins the same at the back, no arguments about which is the better cabin, and no sleeping bags in the saloon.

It's all very well for the author of the letter to pluck numbers from the air and make assumptions about the demographics of the boat buying public from the people they meet, but they are only meeting the type of people who do the same type of sailing they do. Where as there are other people who buy boats that don't fit their criteria, and do a totally different kind of sailing, who the author might not meet.

If the boat manufactures have got it so wrong, in the authors eyes, why are they still successfully selling the type of boats that the authors believes people don't want?

Well put. I know a number of recent newbies who bought three cabin boats on the salesman's advice, and now wish that they had gone for the owner's version. Somewhat to my initial surprise, the sales pitch for three cabin boats was more often than not largely built around allegedly better resale prices - hardly a ringing endorsement of the product's ability to remain in the hands of its first owner!