Portrait of the ideal boat.

[Greenheart]

Am I the only one, wondering why things are as they are?

I do not like to have cold and wet night watches.

I love the sun but it does not love me, meaning I have to have bits chopped off every now and again.

Which means I like protection both from the cold AND the sun.

Likewise, Sybarite. Should I infer that we are in agreement?

Surely the point is that aboard a yacht with a wheelhouse/inside helm, one retains the option to be indoors or out...

...while aboard the VAST majority of new and old sailing boats, this rather basic comfort-option isn't available at all!

Seems crazy to me. If most customers demanded all-weather wheel-shelters, the market would provide, and then only racing types would go without...but until we learn to extend our seasons by this (very) obvious basic design feature, the option isn't widely available.

 

[Sybarite]

Likewise, Sybarite. Should I infer that we are in agreement?

Surely the point is that aboard a yacht with a wheelhouse/inside helm, one retains the option to be indoors or out...

...while aboard the VAST majority of new and old sailing boats, this rather basic comfort-option isn't available at all!

Seems crazy to me. If most customers demanded all-weather wheel-shelters, the market would provide, and then only racing types would go without...but until we learn to extend our seasons by this (very) obvious basic design feature, the option isn't widely available.

Right on.

I saw a little while ago that Vetus were proposing hard dodgers for a variety of popular boats. Very nice they looked too. However I haven't been able to find them either in their catalogue or on the net.

This isn't the one I saw but it's the same idea though not as nice IMO.

http://www.tartarooga.com/

 

[Greenheart]

I saw a little while ago that Vetus were proposing hard dodgers for a variety of popular boats.

Big money to be made for the right design with really tough construction - ideally something that a yard will approve for its yachts. The old Mercedes SL500 with the bolt-on hardtop comes to mind, or those "Truckman"-tops which cover the load bay of pick-ups.

Lots of short, bright, calm days in the middle of winter, when a walk by the sea makes any sailor wish he was out there...

...but only a wheelhouse sailor will relish the wintry peace when the sun goes down and the temperature too.

A thousand thanks for the Condesa article - I started a thread about a month ago, asking if anyone remembered the magazine article about the hefty, sheltered-helm yacht that had been flattened by a ship off the coast of South America. It was Condesa, a Salar 40!

 

[Dockhead]

I'm afraid that I don't agree with any of this. Sailing is an outdoor sport. So is skiing. Skiers don't complain about the cold -- they put on appropriate clothing.

Sailing in the winter in the UK is lovely.

 

[Greenheart]

Skiers don't complain about the cold.

Imagine if they did!! No pleasing some people!

Then again, I tried waterskiing a few times, and only quit because it was so damn chilly.

Sailing in the winter in the UK is lovely.

It is, when it is. And when it isn't, you'll mostly be alone out there, thinking it's lovely.

Sailing is an outdoor sport.

Only because of the wilful, wannabelieve-it's-warm-weather luxurious image, which 'yachting' evokes in yacht buyers. Motorsailers almost invariably offer an outdoor steering station, for those times when it is comfortable out there. When it isn't, there's no need to freeze.

My buddy has a very quick motorbike, and paid almost as much again for insulative, protective leather overalls...

...but he still uses his wife's little Peugeot to get to work all winter! Because ultimately, it's nicer not having to get dressed twice each morning. It's great to breathe fresh air when that's a pleasure, but it's horrid having to encase yourself in neoprene when it's cold & wet.

 

[Tranona]

I had more in mind a Rasmus 35, Moody Halberdier, Amel Sharki, Salar 40. etc

Open but protected centre cockpits which are, I believe, less conducive to sea-sickness.

Therein lies the rub. None of those could be bought (new) at a reasonable price. They exist today in the form of Scandinavian boats (Reginas, Deregos, Nauticats etc), not open back wheelhouses admittedly, but the same basic problem - 50-75% more expensive than a production cruiser of a similar size.

Boats of the type you mention were very common 30 years ago in the rapidly expanding market. They failed to survive, and none of them sold in significant numbers.

My experience in marketing suggests that people are always asking for something that does nor exist, but when it is provided, nobody actually buys it! Boatbuilding is a precarious enough business without taking chances!

 

[E39mad]

The older Southerlys' could be bought at a reasonable price (95/100 105/115) .... just a little more than the production Moody/Westerly of the times. Inside steering/autopilot on all of them. They sold in good numbers albeit not full production.

 

[Tranona]

I daresay Tranona is correct in stating that those sections of the market which might wish for a layout that supports comfortable living for a couple, are unable to influence manufacturers with their wallets. Very unfortunate...

...although perhaps the BenJenBav brigade might evolve to arrange mix-&-match after-market accommodation pods, so a 9-berther with one overused head compartment could be returned to the factory, and the internals switched for two en-suite staterooms?

There is a certain amount of flexibility. I use one of my aft cabins for storage and a single bunk. Some of the 45 footers do indeed have just what you suggest. The fore part of the boat can be converted to be either one master cabin or two sleeping cabins. Bavaria tried a layout with the aft cabins that could be converted to one huge cabin (total flop!) Dufour made a Cat for the charter market that had bulkheads that could be reconfigured to alter the balance living/sleeping space.

Lots of things are possible, but it is really difficult to sell anything out of the ordinary. I was looking at some boats for sale of a fairly popular class recently. Many of them were home completed, usually to a high standards, but most followed the conventional layout. One, however had a custom layout. Beautifully executed, but impractical for most potential buyers. Not yet sold whereas its sister ships sell quickly.

BTW, you need to understand what chartering in the Med playgrounds is about to appreciate why lots of berths are acceptable. My boat was licenced for 8, and often had crews of 6-8. "Sailing" is very different from UK. It is an outdoor activity consisting primarily of drifting or motoring a few hours from one anchorage to another. Most of the time spent swimming, sunbathing, eating or going ashore to party. Crews are usually family or compatible friends all out for a good time! The boats and their facilities reflect that lifestyle.

 

[Babylon]

And it's not pretty, the one for sale even has a tent; I can feel a Victor Meldrew moment coming one!

I can't disagree with you about the pilot-house version, but I think the classic Vancouver 32 or 34 is a beaut!

The eye of the beholder and all that.

 

[Greenheart]

BTW, you need to understand what chartering in the Med playgrounds is about to appreciate why lots of berths are acceptable. "Sailing" is very different from UK. It is an outdoor activity consisting primarily of drifting or motoring a few hours from one anchorage to another. Most of the time spent swimming, sunbathing, eating or going ashore to party. Crews are usually family or compatible friends all out for a good time! The boats and their facilities reflect that lifestyle.

True, I know little or nothing of Mediterranean charterers' habits & preferences; but judging by the description of their boats' use as floating-party stations, I'm all the more surprised by these designs' popularity among 'serious' cruising sailors in damper latitudes.

My experience in marketing suggests that people are always asking for something that does nor exist, but when it is provided, nobody actually buys it! Boatbuilding is a precarious enough business without taking chances!

So tragic, it must be true. Very, very sad.

I suppose the ephemeral nature of ownership is part of the cause. If we had to pick a yacht that would see us through ten or fifteen years' use under our command, we'd be less likely to settle for economically-appealing, lightly-built indifferently-styled AWBs.

No offence intended, to AWB-owners. I don't like AWBs, but heaven knows, I'm in a very tiny minority.

Thank you for the reminder of partitioning experiments by yacht-builders; I'd noticed those over the years, and I can see why they didn't catch on - a divided fore/aft cabin is either very tight for two couples, or weirdly, uncomfortably symmetrical for one couple.

Whatever I end up owning, I'm likely to customize to a point of total unsaleability! But, it'll suit my extended use of it...

...and possibly that of others, dissatisfied with the bland one-size-fits-all menu which it's assumed we find appealing.

 

[Sybarite]

Unless of course :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4ROEw3lHiE&feature=related

 

[BrianH]

A fascinating thread, about a theme close to my heart. As I turned 70 some seven years ago I made a decision I needed a more comfortable boat to spend my summer retirement years on in my chosen cruising area, the Adriatic.

My criteria included a limit of 10m; big enough for myself alone, my usual condition with occasional single guests, and small enough to keep costs manageable on a pension with maintenance and berthing.

The other main requirement was a pilot-house or dog-house because, even in the Adriatic, the weather can be inclement. And as a bimini is always necessary for sun protection, why not have it permanently and securely mounted? All the conventional sailing boats in my marina have one and they are always in place and most look faded, frayed and tatty, along with a spray hood with partially obscured plastic windows.

Last evening I was returning to Italy in my old Hallberg-Rassy motor sailor and as I closed the entrance to my lagoon entrance hard on the northerly wind, it was distinctly chilly and I was glad to be out of it. Only by going on deck to prepare for berthing did I notice just how more comfortable it was in my steering position.

Probably very few want an old man's boat but I see others with the same model and they are couples very much younger, so it can appeal to a wider audience. I just know I made the right choice and wonder how it took 50 years of sailing before the light dawned.

 

[BrianH]

I'm afraid that I don't agree with any of this. Sailing is an outdoor sport. So is skiing. Skiers don't complain about the cold -- they put on appropriate clothing.

I ski every winter in the Bernese Oberland but only when the sun shines. If it clouds over or starts to snow I go home to my warm house. Skiing is an active sport inducing a warm body temperature that cannot compare to sitting steering a boat in a cold wind or worse, sleeting rain.

 

[RobbieW]

... Skiing is an active sport inducing a warm body temperature that cannot compare to sitting steering a boat in a cold wind or worse, sleeting rain.

Damn, he got there first! Saling is mostly sedentary, unless racing when its sedentary interspersed with bursts of frantic activity. Keeping warm whilst sedentary is hard, keeping the wind chill down helps enormously.

 

[wotayottie]

Have you thought of going into consutlancy seeing as you claim to have the answer to everyones' problems.

Bit choleric this morning Searush?

 

[wotayottie]

This is not my portrait; it is a free translation of a letter sent to a French mag. but I agree entirely with the sentiments, :

Fine Sybarite, but thats a bit like saying everyone should have a Freelander because thats what you like, or think you need. But of course they dont and as a result we have lots of boating choice from boats that fit your translated description to charter boats to day sailers to trailer sailers to multis and beyond. Good - you pays your money and makes your choice.

I've got the ideal boat for me but clearly it wouldnt be the ideal for you.

 

[Tranona]

True, I know little or nothing of Mediterranean charterers' habits & preferences; but judging by the description of their boats' use as floating-party stations, I'm all the more surprised by these designs' popularity among 'serious' cruising sailors in damper latitudes.



So tragic, it must be true. Very, very sad.

I suppose the ephemeral nature of ownership is part of the cause. If we had to pick a yacht that would see us through ten or fifteen years' use under our command, we'd be less likely to settle for economically-appealing, lightly-built indifferently-styled AWBs.

No offence intended, to AWB-owners. I don't like AWBs, but heaven knows, I'm in a very tiny minority.

Thank you for the reminder of partitioning experiments by yacht-builders; I'd noticed those over the years, and I can see why they didn't catch on - a divided fore/aft cabin is either very tight for two couples, or weirdly, uncomfortably symmetrical for one couple.

Whatever I end up owning, I'm likely to customize to a point of total unsaleability! But, it'll suit my extended use of it...

...and possibly that of others, dissatisfied with the bland one-size-fits-all menu which it's assumed we find appealing.

You should try it sometime - it is addictive! However, the fact that the same boats can be used successfully elsewhere is a tribute to the designers skill - although I have to say latest developments are stretching that flexibility.

Yes, resale is a major constraint. Building a boat to meet your requirements almost always means that demand is restricted if/when you come to sell. You only have to look at the relatively low prices idiosyncratic boats fetch, or they lie unloved at the back of yards waitting for that one in X thousands to take a shine to it.

 

[Greenheart]

A Top Gear episode comes to mind...Clarkson watching a motorway, promising to drop a pound in a charity-box every time a car passes with more than one person inside. Not a single pound went in if I remember, in spite of the fact that many cars had seven seats.

We seem to want to retain the option to accommodate as many as possible, even though our use rarely requires that.

This thread may have addled my brain, but I'm starting to find the exact opposite outlook much more attractive...

...a pal of mine deliberately bought a coupé, the rear seat being so small, only his daughter is petite enough to get in...

...so now, he no longer feels obliged to offer people lifts, because they'd need serious amputation first!

Okay, I'm not so misanthropic as that, but if a yacht's potential to accommodate eight persons (at a malodorous squeeze) prevents just the owner and SWMBO ever feeling really pampered despite the vessel's substantial proportions, then in my view, something is wrong!

Imagine finding your knees pressed up against the front seat, in a Rolls Royce Phantom. And when you ask what's going on, the driver in the front says "What d'you expect? There's another row of cramped seats behind you, for the kids and their friends!"

There are luxury cars, and then there are 7-seat people-carriers. I'm just lamenting the rarity of luxury, aboard yachts.

 

[2nd_apprentice]

Perhaps it's a cultural thing too, as the French say about British yacht designs: "les anglais, ils se cachent du temps!" Also remember a blog about a British couple sailing the Med in their Colvic Watson and how none of the Germans wanted to be seen dead in what looked like a commercial fishing vessle to them.
Other that that I'd agree with Tranona: in reality there just isn't any market for professional boatbuilders. Most of them have a surprisingly tight budget, just think about how many went bust in the past! Cutting costs means standardisation with a limited number of options. If there was sufficient demand for the boat described by the OP, surely somebody would be offering it.
Isn't it a bit like with equipement in general? Long distance sailors complaining about poor quality vs the overwhelming mass of weekend sailors not willing to spend thousands.

 

[onesea]

We seem to want to retain the option to accommodate as many as possible, even though our use rarely requires that.

The problem is if yo do not have that ability you cannot do it. We have 8 berths sail normally with 2 of us BUT about 10% of the time there is more. So we would exclude our family if we did it different..

30% of the time I day sail on my own for which she iis far from ideal but that's life...